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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : This is War!!??

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PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 This is War!!??

If there is already a thread on this please direct me.

Can a Christian go to war? I have heard some say "True Christians don't go to war." Is that a true biblical statement?

They use these verses:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.


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Josh Parsley

 2005/10/3 16:29Profile









 Re: This is War!!??

I thought it was the issue of "unjust" war.

And as I understood it a "just" war was a war of national survival....where the survival of the nation is in peril.

 2005/10/3 16:38
Warrior4Jah
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Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re: This is War!!??

Check 2 Kings 6:8-23, especially verses 21-23!
The king held a big meal (instead slaying them) for his enemies and since then they didn't came back to Israel again!

Well furthermore WW2 springs to mind.. I'm glad that was ended although it had to be through war.
I don't think war is justified if there is another way to resolve a conflict.
Well you don't want to be the first to start a war for sure. :-)

For the rest this is a tricky question...
I don't want to be a soldier in some army if that means that I would have to kill someone.
Thought about that lately.. what if you kill someone and that person goes to hell.. :-?
(Not that killing christians would be good either..)
Hmm I don't know.. what if nobody wants to pick up arms while your nation is attacked?


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/10/3 17:03Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: War: What's it Good for

Check out this audio sermon by a Brethren in Christ pastor in Toronto (Bruxy Cavey):

WAR, WHAT'S IT GOOD FOR?

EDIT: I Can't get the link to work from this post, so go to [url=http://www.themeetinghouse.ca/sermons_search.php]Sermons[/url] Then a third of the way down you will find the title: War, what's it good for?

Diane


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Diane

 2005/10/3 17:11Profile
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Posts: 3777


 Re: Sermons about violence committed by the church

There is an excellent series of sermons also by Bruxy Cavey called When Darkness Falls.

You will find these messages very stirring. They cover the darker aspects of church history, like the crusades, the witchhunts, the inquisition, when the church used violence - beliving it was justified by God.

Sorry, I can't get this link to work in this post.

You will have to find it yourself by going to [url=http://www.themeetinghouse.ca/sermons_search.php]Sermons[/url] and then find, "When Darkness Falls"
It's worth it!

Diane


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Diane

 2005/10/3 17:32Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
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 Re:

The people that are saying this are ex-mininites (spelling). I run into them when we go out street preaching.

They would say that the early Christians would just lay down and not fight because their kingdom is not of this world...


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Josh Parsley

 2005/10/3 18:20Profile
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
They would say that the early Christians would just lay down and not fight because their kingdom is not of this world...



Assuming of course that there were no early Christians who were also Romans serving in the military... ;-)


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Mike Compton

 2005/10/3 19:02Profile
Smokey
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Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re: This is War!!??

I don't see anywhere that Cornelius the Centurion in Acts chapter 10 renounced the army and deserted..


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Greg

 2005/10/3 20:31Profile
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

I don't see it either.

From reading the New Testament, it's seems that viewing Christianity and Soldering as incompatible vocations is a false dichotomy.

One of the stranger aspects of the early church was an apolitical inclusiveness of believers who participated in industries such as secular government, war, and slavery, that seem totaly odds with the Jesus' kingdom teachings.

I think it makes an interesting discussion for us Christians who are wanting to return to the "ancient path."

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/10/3 20:55Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
They would say that the early Christians would just lay down and not fight because their kingdom is not of this world...

This is where we have to carefully divide the word of truth. There surely can never be any justification for Christians to take up arms to defend their Christianity. The separation of church and state needs to be carefully maintained here. Some religions have spread by the sword eg Islam but true Christianity could never so spread. Christ sent out his disciples as sheep among wolves, and still does.“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight...” (John 18:36a, KJVS)
The area of examination is rather 'should a Christian take up arms to defend his wife and family' or 'himself, if the attack is against him as a citizen and not a Christian or, by extension, should he take up arms to defend the country in which he lives. Did you notice how carefully I expressed that last sentence? :-) As regards the 'world' Christians are usually agreed that we are to be 'in it' but not 'of it'; what about the country in which we live?

We are now into the territory of 'patriotism' in the proper sense of the word. from L.L. patriota "fellow-countryman" (6c.), from Gk. patriotes "fellow countryman," from patrios "of one's fathers," patris "fatherland," from pater (gen. patros) Patriotism has to do with physical origins. Technically an immigrant can never become a 'patriot', in the way that technically a man can never be 'hysterical'. ;-) The way we now use the word has to do with a sense of loyalty and belonging and, when under pressure, it is a test of where our ultimate loyalties lie. A famous British spy once said that if he were put to the test as to whether to betray his country or his friend, he hoped he would have the courage to betray his country. I know that that will be a controversial statement, but it has a link with another recent thread and this verse of scripture;“Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.” (1John 3:16, KJVS), The word 'ought' here has to do with what a man 'owes' and his 'duty'. Consequently it would not be wrong to paraphrase this sentence as 'we owe it and it is our duty to lay down our lives for the brethren'. That means my ultimate loyalty is to my family in Christ rather than to my natural family or to my 'patria'. “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26, KJVS)This is disturbing stuff I know, but we cannot ignore these statements and we must not dilute them to make them acceptable.

Agape, of course, is much more than 'duty'. Christ laid down his life for those who were his enemies. Christians have always disagreed on the topics of pacifism, the remarriage of divorcees, and what to do with repentant apostates. One of the 'patron saints' of this site, Leonard Ravenhill was a pacifist; some of his closest associates in his earlier days supported Christians going to war in 'non-combatitive' roles, and some went to war as full solders.

What are we to do with these variations of conviction?“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” (Rom. 14:5, KJVS)

“And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” (Rom. 14:23, KJVS)Personally I cannot premeditate these things. I cannot answer the familiar question which begins 'but what if your wife...' God gives 'grace in due time' and I must trust him to make the way plain in 'due time'. In the interim, I want to give the widest liberty of conscience to every Christian. I will try to give an account of why I believe what I believe, but not to persuade another to change his mind. For myself, to use the language of that British spy, I would hope that I would have the courage to be a pacifist in 'due time' but to boast of such, ahead of the test, would be folly.


Quote:
One of the stranger aspects of the early church was an apolitical inclusiveness of believers who participated in industries such as secular government, war, and slavery, that seem totaly odds with the Jesus' kingdom teachings.

I think it makes an interesting discussion for us Christians who are wanting to return to the "ancient path."

Some of these come from the concept of “Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. ” (1Cor. 7:20, KJVS) To slaves Paul specifically instructed that if possible they should accept freedom. Soldiering is a kind of slavery in that a man is totally under the command of another; the fact that it is voluntary does not alter its nature. We are slaves to Christ, by choice, but slaves nevertheless. The 'chain of command' in military terms is absolute and initial training is designed to instill this into the new soldier. He must not think, he must obey. This is the essence of slavery.

It is true that Cornelius' 'calling' is never questioned, nor is that of Onesimus. The question that a man must answer is 'what would you choose'? Should a Christian choose slavery? Should a Christian choose soldiering?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/4 4:37Profile





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