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Jimbob, You're reasonably new here.

We discussed the Pharoah thing here about 2 months ago and more times before that since this forum has been here.

You say you needed to post here to make us "THINK" and then tell us to "keep our answers brief". Else where, you demanded "no lengthy theories, use ten words or less for each answer. Please respond via PM." on this same question about Pharoah.

I'm sorry jimbob, I don't think that's the nicest way to get to know us all.

Maybe Warrior can go track down our last discussion on Pharoah.

I agree with you about the bloodiness of Calvin's life though and those who followed him afterwards.

The best way to get us "beyond this silly debate", is to drop it and focus on what's really needed in our relationships with God and each other.



 2005/10/3 12:54

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


I copied this from another thread a long time ago. Sister Shelly wrote:

This analogy is a VERY simple look at Predestination and Election. I did not intend it to be for salvation, regeneration, sanctification, etc. It basically states in my opinion, that on the topic of predestination/election that we were chosen as a whole (the church), yet have the individual will to choose to serve our Lord and Master. Once again the analogy was not to serve as an end all be all for salvation and etc. BTW, desire is not enough..the analogy did cover a living faith, meaning a day to day belief in Jesus Christ, and not just believe but living the Word, not just reading it or knowing it.

Let me explain myself perhaps a little more clearly.
ELECTION--God's choice of those who believe in Christ is an important doctrine to the apostle Paul (Rom 8:29-33, 9:6-26, 11:5,28; Col 3:12; 1Thess 1:4; 2Thess 2:13; Titus 1:1). Election refers to God's choice in Christ of a people in order that they should be holy and blameless in his sight. Paul sees election as expressing God's love as God receives, as His own, all who receive His Son, Jesus. I feel that the doctrine of election involves these following truths: ( I may split up over several posts.)

1. Election is Christocentric ie, election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, "Here is my servant whom I have chosen". Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect. NO ONE is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.
If the analogy were carefully read, you would see that if one does not maintain that union with Christ, he/she is no longer part of the elect and have abandoned ship.
2. Election is "in Him...through His blood" (Eph. 1:7). God purposed before creation to form a people through Christ's redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded in Christ's sacrificial death to save us from our sins(Act 20:28, Rom 3:24-26).

3. Election in Christ is primarily corporate, that is the election of a people. The elect are called "the body of Christ", "My church","A people belonging to God" and the "bride" of Christ. Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church. This was true already of Israel in the OT.
4. The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remain conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with Him. Paul demonstrates this as follows:
a.) God's eternal purpose for the church is that we should "be holy and blameless in His sight" (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgivness of sins, and to the church's sanctification and holiness. God's elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (Rom 8:14; Gal 5:16-25). Paul repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (Eph 2:10, 3:14-19, 4:1-3,13-24; 5:1-18.)
b.)Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will "present her to Himself as a radiant church...holy and blameless (Eph 5:27).
c.) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us "holy and blameless in His sight" only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this to us clearly: Christ will "present you holy in His sight without blemish...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel" (Col 1:22-23).

5. Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (John 3:16-17; 1 Tim 2:4-6; Titus 2:11)and becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God's gift of salvation in Christ. At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ's elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Col 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, both God and humans have a decision in election.

PREDESTINATION--Predestination means "to decide beforhand" and applies to God's purposes comprehended in election. Election is God's choice "in Christ" of a people (the true church) for Himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God's people (all genuine believers in Christ).
1.) God predestines his elect to be : called (Rom 8:30); justified (Rom 3:24; 8:30); glorified (Rom 8:30); conformed to the likeness of His Son (Rom 8:29); holy and blameless (Eph 1:4); adopted as God's children (Eph 1:5); redeemed (Eph 1:7); recipients of an inheritance(Eph 1:14); for the praise of His glory (Eph 1:12; 1Pet 2:9);recipients of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Gal 3:14) and created to do good works (Eph 2:10).
2.) Predestination, like election, refers to the corporate body of Christ(the true spiritual church), and comprehends individuals only in association with that body through a living faith in Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your time.

Yours in Christ,


It is Christ's work that is predestined. The question is: Do you hear His voice.

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2005/10/3 15:19Profile


That was beautifully done Shelly/Jeff.

Thank you both for posting it.

 2005/10/3 15:27

Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands


Hey Jimbob!

Well yes I didn't answer the question. At start I did begin to write down some of the things I found out when studying this issue about the pharaoh.. but I decided not to post that.

About the Calvanism vs Armanian thing, I have little interrest to take a stand in that issue or to brand myself with a label. However it is an interresting topic to read. (especially since I don't know much about these 'groups' of believers and what they believe.)

I think its noble that you want to make people think! Have you reached a conclusion?

The link Annie was talking about:

Let us also examine if the replies/posts we make are in His Love, without preconceptions towards eachother!

God bless! :-D

Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/10/3 16:39Profile

Joined: 2005/9/29
Posts: 3

 Re:what should we belive in

point blank!!!!

the only answer to this contreversy with studing the scriptures the holy bible always says one thing:

"when i kneel down to pray i'm a calvinist, but when i preach in the pulpit im an armenianist"

 2005/10/4 2:23Profile

Joined: 2005/9/29
Posts: 3


the only answer to this contreversy with studing the scriptures the holy bible always says one thing:

"when i kneel down to pray i'm a calvinist, but when i preach in the pulpit im an armenianist"

 2005/10/4 2:25Profile

Joined: 2005/9/29
Posts: 3


At the heart of the controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism is the emphasis on the sovereignty of God by the Calvinists and on the free will of man, or human responsibility, by the Arminians. Arminian theology teaches that man has free will and that God will never interrupt or take that free will away, that God has obligated Himself to respect the free moral agency and capacity of free choice with which He created us. Calvinism, on the other hand, emphasizes that God is in total control of everything, and that nothing can happen that He does not plan and direct, including man's salvation. Both doctrinal positions are logical, both have Scriptures to back up each of their five points, and both are, in my opinion, partially right and partially wrong.

As Philip Schaff put it in his History of the Christian Church, "Calvinism emphasizes divine sovereignty and free grace; Arminianism emphasizes human responsibility. The one restricts the saving grace to the elect; the other extends it to all men on the condition of faith. Both are right in what they assert; both are wrong in what they deny. If one important truth is pressed to the exclusion of another truth of equal importance, it becomes an error, and loses its hold upon the conscience. The Bible gives us a theology which is more human than Calvinism and more divine than Arminianism, and more Christian than either of them." (New York, Charles Scribner's & Son, 1910, VIII 815 f). Certainly, the Bible does teach that God is sovereign (Psalm 135:6; Daniel 4:35, Ephesians 1:11), and that believers are predestined and elected by God (Romans 8) to spend eternity with Him. Nowhere, however, does the Bible ever associate election with damnation. Conversely, the Scriptures teach that God elects for salvation, but that unbelievers are in hell by their own choice.

Every passage of the Bible that deals with election deals with it in the context of salvation, not damnation. No one is elect for hell. The only support for such a view (which John Calvin did teach) is human logic, not Biblical revelation.

The idea of total depravity is consistent with Scripture (Ephesians 2:1, Romans 3:11), but the doctrine of limited atonement, that Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world, is clearly anti-Biblical (John 3:16, I Timothy 2:6, 11 Peter 2:1, I John 2:2). The Bible teaches that Jesus died for everyone's sins and that everyone is able to be saved if they will repent and turn to Christ. Limited atonement is a non-Biblical doctrine. (John 3:16,17; Romans 5:8, 18; 2Corinthians 5:14,15; 1Timothy 2:4; 4:10; Hebrews 2:9; 10:29; 2Peter 2: I; 1John 2:2; 4:14.)

Irresistible grace is taught by some, who do not understand the concept, to mean that God drags people to Himself contrary to their wills. Actually, the Biblical view, and the view of most Calvinists, is the belief that God works on our wills so as to make us willing to surrender to Him. In other words, He makes us willing to come to Christ for salvation.

And, many Scriptures teach that a true believer is safe and secure in Christ, that salvation doesn't depend on our ability to keep ourselves, but on God's ability to keep us. (1John S:11-13; John 10:28; Romans 5:1 and 8:1). The only condition for salvation is faith in Christ (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9). On the other hand, the Bible teaches us that we must abide in Christ (John 15; Luke 13:14; Colossians 1:29; 2Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 6:4-6; 1Peter 1:10) to persevere in salvation.

 2005/10/4 2:28Profile

Joined: 2005/10/22
Posts: 20


2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfil his promise as some count slowness, but is patient towards you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repetance.

That indicates to me that the choices you make in life are fundamentally your own decisions. I have seen people twist calvinism into saying that they can do whatever they want, if they are predestined to heaven then thats where they'll go, if not theres nothing they can do about it.

As a university student I see this a lot (even in myself) - people lose sight of the Bible, and a lot of their motivation, in favour of following a certain set of beliefs - giving up self control on the basis that you can only do what God wants you to do.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human traditions, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul's writings to the churches are full of messages instructing the people to change there ways, of course you need God's help in this, but if you accept 2 Timothy 3:16-17, it indicates that repentance is an act of will; i can't imagine the Holy Spirit, through Paul and others, was being fallacious in telling people to change there ways lest they lose there 'birthright' (ref. Ephesians 4 vs. 17-32, James 1 19-27, 2 Timothy 4 1-9 and especially Hebrews 12: 14-17)

Indeed you are called to "resist the devil and he WILL flee from you, draw near to God and he will draw near to you." (James 4: 7-8) and Jude 1:21, pretty proactive stuff if you ask me.

I think it's always dangerous to put God in a box - quite frankly I don't whether he has limited himself (as in, Isiah 43:25) or not, his very prophecy (as in Daniel) would cleary indicate he knows the future - yet is it not a limit to the very soverignty the calvinists claim to preserve that he cannot delegate it out?

At the same time 1 Peter 3: 15-17:
"But in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defence to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience that when you are slandered those who revile your good behaviour in Christ may be put to shame."

Almost 4am :(

 2005/10/22 22:54Profile

Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia


"are you not still saying...He elected to choose us through some sort of foreknowledge?"

What saith the Scriptures?

Jer 1:5a "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee"

Rom 8:29a "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son"

Rom 11:2a "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."

Eph 1:11b "being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

"So who chose who first"

God chose us first. How could we choose him first if he predinated us with foreknowledge? He is all knowing, and that infinate knowledge means that he knew how everything would end before Gen 1:1.

"and this choosing was based on what?"

Whatever will bring Him glory. I was not there when He laid the foundations of the Earth.

"Are you not still in effect making God's sovereignty bow down to man's choice to serve Him or not?"

He bowed down so low that He let man walk all over Him. He is so sovereign that He let man put Him on a cross. The standard He gave has never changed, but the Son bowed down to the Father to show us while He is the Most High, he is also aquainted with grief and sorrow.

"Why did HE harden Pharoahs heart?"

God uses people who are seeking to be close to Him, but He also uses people who utterly hate him. Like: Satan, Pharaoh, Herod, the Pharisees, Saul, etc. He uses men like Pharaoh to strengthed His people. Tribulation on the farm is the thrashing of wheat that seperates in from the chaff. He has and will continue to try His people, to bring Himself glory.

Yes, we are saved by grace, but through what? Faith. We are saved by grace through faith. Grace is a free gift, but you don't have to accept a gift. Grace is like a huge piece of spiritual conduit that is available to all mankind, but until your faith travels to God via the way He has appointed, namely through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, the blood will not be put on our account.

Let me add as some may get the wrong idea, God set up this way, but does not change His standard to meet us closer during this day and age. He made the way, and simply said, "If any man serve me, let him follow me." He is not made more or less God by us following or not following. Neither is he comprimising. He stooped lower that we are willing to stoop to pave the way to Him. And now in glory, just says if anyone will come, let him come.

I don't think giving man a choice is anti-election. If you are asking me how I think it happened, you are just asking a man. I wasn't there. However, I think an all-knowing God created us, but knew who would turn to Him prior.

If we had no say in anything, then why is there a judgment? If we have no responsibilty, then why are there rewards in heaven? If we have no freewill then why do the verses in Scripture read, 'whosoever believeth' and 'whosoever shall call.' And why does God command all men everywhere to repent instead of only commanding his elect? Because he paid for the sins of the world but foreknew who would respond, and made specific plans ahead of time to bring glory to Himself through men. That's why we have God, the Holy Ghost, in us.

Hal Bachman

 2005/10/30 17:22Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 4


If we had no say in anything, then why is there a judgment? If we have no responsibilty, then why are there rewards in heaven? If we have no freewill then why do the verses in Scripture read, 'whosoever believeth' and 'whosoever shall call.' And why does God command all men everywhere to repent instead of only commanding his elect? Because he paid for the sins of the world but foreknew who would respond, and made specific plans ahead of time to bring glory to Himself through men. That's why we have God, the Holy Ghost, in us.

There is a judgment because all have sinned against the One True and Holy God and thus deserve the penalty for their sins. While our hearts are not inclined to come to Christ without the intervention of God, still we sin against Him willingly. It is a grace and mercy when He intervenes, not a debt.

Whosoever [i]doesn't [/i]believe or does not call does not fit the description of 'does not perish' :-) Only those who believe and call on Christ for salvation are saved.

Concerning repentance: God deserves the unfaltering obedience and praise from all He has created, thus the blanket command of repentance is due Him. The only exception would not be the non-elect, but rather the non-sinner, who doesn't exist except in Christ.

God knows all things, including who will be saved and who will not. But, we must be careful not to say what the Bible doesn't teach. The Bible teaches that God elects according to the pleasure of His good will. Foreknowledge is involved, but the foreknowledge the Bible speaks of in these instances takes for granted that God foreknows what He also brings to pass. God foreknows (and much could be said about what the term even means, see Romans 8:29-30 and to whom it applies), but His election is never said to be based on His foreknowing any particular thing that a person does.

If anyone wants to see who ... calls, elects, predestines, they should look up all instances and see who is the one doing the action, and who is the recipient of it. Election and predestination lose their meaning as words with the idea that they are based on the recipients foreseen actions rather than the grace of God upon an undeserving sinner, one whom He has loved while they were yet a sinner and not because they would choose already (and without His aid) not to be one.

 2005/11/2 3:45Profile

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