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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Calvamanianism.

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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada


What made the Bereans -noble- wasn't that they read the OT scriptures, it was that they carefully researched what Paul was saying -before- they dismissed it.

We learn from this that to dismiss something before you examine to see whether it is true or not is the thing that is ignoble.

I appreciate your zeal.


Daniel van de Laar

 2005/9/30 18:38Profile


Can we compromise on a both/and ?

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that [u]they received the word with all readiness of mind[/u], [b]and[/b] [u]searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so.[/u]

Nobler than those "lewd fellows of the baser sort" who accused Paul and Silas of turning "the world upside down" .... HA, those verses always crack me up.

Hey, Let's turn the world upside down. :-D

 2005/10/1 0:08

Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


Sooooo.... If God desires that none should perish but that ALL should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:7) Then why did he harden Pharaoh's heart? (Romans 9:14-18)

 2005/10/1 2:27Profile

Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: Calvamanianism.

I didn't read all the posts, but I am either a backslidden Arminian or a 4.5 point Calvanist. Not sure which.

I also agree with the brother that stated God is not constrained by time. God knows all. Therefore before He even started to create anything, He knew how it would all end. So for someone to say He is ignorant of who will be with Him in that day, is plain wrong in my view. It is saying that God doesn't know all. God knows the number, man does not. These are the elect. God knows who we are before we enter the womb. If he knows the number of each hair on our head, surely he knows the number who will be with Him in the last day.

However, to say that man has no responsibility, and if he is elected, he can just hide in his home until the Spirit of God moves upon him, is absolute foolishness. If we have no responsibility to God, as believers or infidels, why is there a judgment? Even Spurgeon, who was heavily Calvanist, preached against this 'frozen chosen' way of thinking. Spurgeon used to pray, 'God call out your elect, and then elect some more.'

Here is my take. God gave us freewill, however He knew who would submit to the Holy Ghost before the foundation of the world was laid. So when He created us, he created His chosen, as well. How can we say that we chose Him, when He made us, made the way to Him, breathed life into us, paid for our sin, guides us, gives us the ability to turn to Him, etc, etc, etc. While we have submitted ourselves to His will, in the big picture, He created us knowing full well who would turn to Him and who would resist. The end result is His glory.

So man does have a responsiblity toward God, but He already knows the outcome. So the second you say, "I'm elect. Let's just sit around and wait for the judgment," or "It's all up to me and you, God just made the way and sits back," it seems to me you have misunderstood Scripture.

Freewill: John 7:37b "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink."

Election: John 15:16a "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..."

Resistance against the Holy Ghost: Acts 7:51 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

I see no problem with election and freewill working in harmony Scripturally. The confusion comes about when someone assumes we know everything God knows, and assuming God works with the same means and limits that we do.

Hal Bachman

 2005/10/2 22:50Profile

Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131



So when you say God knew before he created us "who would submit to the Holy Ghost", are you not still saying in effect that because we chose Him, He elected to choose us through some sort of foreknowledge?

So who chose who first, and this choosing was based on what?

Are you not still in effect making God's sovereignty bow down to man's choice to serve Him or not?

Please answer the question I posed earlier;

If God desires that none should perish, but that ALL come to repentance, Why did HE harden Pharoahs heart?

 2005/10/3 2:58Profile


Could I say something here.

Do you know we've been fighting this argument since shortly after the first Church began ?

And every time new folks come ... here it comes up again. And it usually loses civility really quick.

Here's a forum where they LOVE to debate this issue and HAVE for years now.

It just goes on and on and on and on.

YET, though I'm not "Calvinist", I like books written by the Calvinist Classic Authors found on this site and though some of the members on this site 'are' Calvinists, to one degree or another, they like the Non-Calvinist Authors and Speakers, offered on this site.

I've seen the books that both recommend or sermons they've enjoyed from this site and I see this all of the time.

So why does it always come back to Calvinists coming on to Forums to push Calvinism ?

Can't we just seek CHRIST together ?

I only have problems with Calvinism, when they make someone DOUBT that they are ELECTED or when they don't feel holiness should be the fruit of Salvation and push OSAS to the limit, where it becomes easy believism.

Other than those two things, I don't mind if some are Calvinists on here but I cannot for the life of me, understand why we would start to challenge each other and get almost nasty with this.

I'm telling ya ... it's goes on for years and if anyone Really Enjoys arguing with brothers on this to prove that they are right (or that Calvin was), then that forum above will give those type debaters the thrill of their life.... they can argue that till the world ends. :-?

 2005/10/3 4:41

Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands


Sooooo.... If God desires that none should perish but that ALL should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:7) Then why did he harden Pharaoh's heart? (Romans 9:14-18)

I've looked into that question a while back..
You should check [b]why[/b] God hardened pharao's heart.. makes a good study. But I won't get into that in this topic. Perhaps you'll find it handy to check what happened before God hardened pharaos heart.

Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/10/3 6:15Profile

Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


Yes, but your response still didn't answer the question! The topic is Calvin vs Arminius, so this is a valid question, asked so the readers of this forum will THINK! Did God go against his own desires that none should perish, and harden Pharoah's heart anyway? There is a very simple answer found right there in Scripture, so keep your answers brief.

And Annie, I'm pressing the issue because my sincere desire is to get people BEYOND this silly debate! God's ways are so much higher than our ways!

P.S. John Calvin oversaw the execution of 58 people in Geneva that didn't agree with his theology, so while his views produced some great truths, they did not produce much love or compassion in the man himself!

 2005/10/3 12:32Profile

Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


And Annie, I'm pressing the issue because my sincere desire is to get people BEYOND this silly debate! God's ways are so much higher than our ways!

You are right about one thing....this debate is silly.

Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/10/3 12:41Profile


I have to post. [url=]1 Timothy 6[/url]

It's sad really. Some debate out of pride. "I know the truth, let me force you the truth." Other out of ignorance. I've seen a debate of this topic stay pure for a while, then become defiled within 2 weeks. (That's a long time for this debate to stay fruitful)

I've seen radical (sinful radical) sites of Calvinism, and Arminianism. They are sinful in the fact of calling their brothers and sisters herotics. Some say 'you can't be Christian and be an Arminian.' Others say the opposite.

I think if you believe such things, YOU are in error, and need to get your relationship RIGHT WITH JESUS. Before meaningless talk.

If Christ were in this discussion, what would He say? By far, if you would say, "Christ would say 'The truth is in Calvinsism/Arminianism'." You are prideful and need to ask God to remove this pride. Christ would never enter such a discussion. Why? UNFRUITFULNESS!

I love my Calvinsist brothers, and my Arminian brothers. But I mourn over the brothers who stab one another for saying 'you are a false brethern' Christ never said, 'You will know they are disciples if they have 100% biblical truth.' HE SAID IF YOU HAVE 'LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER'. He didn't refer to the 'world' as one another. BUT BRETHREN!

Amen. (Im done)

 2005/10/3 12:43

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