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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : If God did not cease to exist for 3 days then how do you explain this?

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dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:...just the Apostles Creed alone probably came about in 390 A.D....



The creed began to circulate around 215 A.D. - in this form:

Quote:
“I believe in God The Father Almighty
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord;
Who was by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary;
under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, and buried.
The third day he rose from the dead;
He ascended into heaven;
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The Holy Church;
The forgiveness of sins;
The resurrection of the body;



Over the next 500 years or so the various additions to this creed were added. The part about descending into hell started off in 390 as "descended into the grave", but was removed almost immediately and was only reintroduced again three hundred years or so later - and in the final morph - a result of a poor translation - it was reintroduced into the creed as "descended into hell"

The verses cited to defend this doctrine, when examined in context do nothing to defend, or even suggest this particular teaching.

Dan
/\/
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_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/9/28 12:53Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

OK. I'll be more specific...

Quote:
After Jesus' physical death, He decended into the depths of the earth to set the captive free,

the notion that Christ descended into Hades to break its chains and set the captives free is part of the 'ransom to devil theory' and was also known as 'the harrowing of hell'; it reappears fairly frequently but is usually rejected by conservative evangelicals. Christ's victory over Satan took place on the cross not in Hades.

Quote:
to preach to them what HE had just done

my view is that Christ's proclamation was not evangelical but the proclamation of victory over his enemies. The word used for preached is not 'evangelise' but rather 'proclaim',

Quote:
and to take the Keys from Satan.

Who says Satan was ever in charge of Hades? Ultimately he will be the chief prisoner in Hell, but there is no biblical evidence, so far as I know, to sugggest that he was ever in charge of Hades.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/28 17:57Profile









 Re:

[b]I'll just stick whatever answers of mine in bold[/b]


by philologos on 2005/9/28 17:57:30

OK. I'll be more specific...
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After Jesus' physical death, He decended into the depths of the earth to set the captive free,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the notion that Christ descended into Hades to break its chains and set the captives free is part of the 'ransom to devil theory' and was also known as 'the harrowing of hell'; it reappears fairly frequently but is usually rejected by conservative evangelicals. Christ's victory over Satan took place on the cross not in Hades.

[b]I do believe that Christ's Victory over Satan took place on the cross and not in Hades[/b]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

to preach to them what HE had just done
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my view is that Christ's proclamation was not evangelical but the proclamation of victory over his enemies. The word used for preached is not 'evangelise' but rather 'proclaim',

[b]I never once said for evangelical purposes.

You just said "Christ's Proclamation" ... where did He give this "Proclamation" ?[/b]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and to take the Keys from Satan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who says Satan was ever in charge of Hades? Ultimately he will be the chief prisoner in Hell, but there is no biblical evidence, so far as I know, to sugggest that he was ever in charge of Hades.

[b]Again, I didn't say Satan was in "charge" of Hades.
When in the Verse ~ Col 2:15 "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" ... I spoke of the Authority, as God had put it in the O.T. that He would put Christ's enemies "under his feet, as a footstool."

A lot went on at Calvary, the "bruising of the heel and the crushing of satan's head".

Whatever you'd like to strain at, you'd have to be angelic in nature and there in the unseen world at the time of Christ's death to tell me all that went on in Heaven, earth, and Below, for me to give your views any more credence than almost 2000 of controversy of what took place.

Samuel7 had a question. I gave it my best understanding ......... Why don't you give him your best.[/b]

:-P

 2005/9/28 18:25









 Re:

Hi Dann,

I gave this a lot of research, as far as all the whens, and who believes what, and I will only say this last time, get a stack of commentaries, from way back until today, and you will see this point debated among the best of them.

Like "what language did Matthew first write his Gospel in ?" type arguments again.

When you take Samuel7's question and answer it yourself, then I think it would be helpful possibly to all of us.

But if your only thing is space/time etc. etc., as in your first post on this thread ... I'm not sure that is the language that Jesus or Paul would have us speak to people in, who we don't know.

We are to answer one another in Love first and then in Koine language. Plain and simple like, as they say down south here.

God does not need human brains .... He wants us to speak to other's questions as simpley and 'Biblically' as possible.

His Word gives Life ... not anything else.

The Apostles waited those many days, before Christ Resurrected and showed Himself to them ... He did not come back and say, "Well, listen fellas ... to you it 'seemed like' 3 days or so, but in My space-time .......... "

This thread was started by Samuel7.

If you believe I answered him incorrectly .... please do Samuel7 the justice he deserves and answer him Scripturally.



Thank you.

Annie


 2005/9/28 18:46









 Re:

Dann.

Samuel7's question regarded aspects of the Trinity ...

You said .... Quote: "All speculation upon the nature of the Trinity is nigh vulgar really - so I am careful here."

But then proceded to give a lengthy answer, and with a lack of Scripture ... which is our only source of truth.

What I find "nigh vulgar", is when others do not use Scripture to describe Christ and when they split hairs on mute points, and become heady and high minded, rather than speak to the average person or Christian.

We do not need to "spectulate" upon the Trinity.

God's Word is plain and a child could understand ... and if we say that it's not so, then we rob ourselves of the most Awesome Revelation of Who Christ/God is.

That is the only time and reason that my dander is raised.... when other's are robbed of "the simplicity that is in Christ".

And robbed is the only word that would suit this thread so far.

My 'first paragragh' may have been controversial and has been for almost 2000 yr.s as I stated in my first answer to Philo-Ron, and I did say on page one that this controvery 'has' gone on even before 390 AD ,,, as your post above strains over .... but my gripe now, over the gripes of both you and Philo, is Where is either of your Scriptural answers to the thread's question and why would you both rather split hairs, to no one's benefit, then to see what God would say to Samuel ?

To me that is "nigh vulgar really".


Our "intellects" are what God laughs at.
Our petty hair-splitting makes Him nauseous.
Our Athens style debates turns Him away.


If someone preaches blatant heresy, then by all means, I also would jump in there .... but I haven't seen that on this thread .... and feel this thread has done nothing to magnify the Triune Godhead that Samuel needed answers about.


We 'can' glorify the Trinity by Scripture alone.

 2005/9/28 19:32
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Annie - Thanks for your thoughts.

The question asked by Samuel7 can be answered by quoting a single bible verse.

"God is Holy! Holy! Holy!"

Recall, that the word Holy means "set apart" - that is, God is set apart from or completely alien to creation (the universe, time, space, people, angelic beings, etc.) The thrifold reference is the Semetic equivalent to writing the word ten feet tall in bold face and underlining it 20 times. Isaiah was trying to say something that we do well to heed.

God is Holy.

That is the 'biblical' answer.

The answer I gave to Samuel7 was an expansion of that simple answer, that is, I showed that God was not limited to the rules of creation (because He is HOLY HOLY HOLY!)

It is one thing to say God is not like creation - and it is another thing to chart out just how utterly foreign God is from our concept of time and space. God transcends both, and we must not, we dare not put God in a box such that he is bound by time as though He were merely a creature and not the Creator.

If you find my explanation lacking, I would not be offended if you would review it thoroughly and perhaps even suggest a few scriptures to me to help me demonstrate its biblicity.

Muchly appreciated. :-)

Dan
/\/
\/\


_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/9/30 18:46Profile









 Re:

Hi Dan,

I only have one question. Where's Samuel7 ?


You said, """"The question asked by Samuel7 can be answered by quoting a single bible verse.

"God is Holy! Holy! Holy!""""


I'm cool with that, I've just been wondering if 'any' of our answers have satisfied our thread starter.


HEY SAMUEL ... WHERE ARE YOU ?


Guess that's really what I've been wondering for a few days now.


Oh, and I also liked this part of your answer ...
"""I showed that God was not limited to the rules of creation"""



That expression of "putting God in a box", always cracks me up.
I'd like to see somebody try it someday. :-?


I reckon we'll just have to wait & see if Samuel will come back. I hope so.


His Peace to you.

Annie

 2005/9/30 23:41
Samuel7
Member



Joined: 2005/9/15
Posts: 7


 Re:

Sorry I have not responded in days, I have been sick.

I have been thinking and researching several of your comments.

God is the Creator, HOLY! A good way of seeing the answer to this thread.

I will comment more later...

Samuel7

 2005/10/9 16:31Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: If God did not cease to exist for 3 days then how do you explain this?

Quote:
We say God did not cease to exist for 3 days, so how can this be explained?



The Lord Jesus died as a Man. Philippians tells us that though He existed in the form of God... He humbled Himself taking on the form of a Man and became obedient unto death...

In INcarnation, The Eternal Uncreated God put on something New. that is Created Humanity. HIs divine nature is not subject to death but His created humanity was subject to death.

Christ died as a Man. He died in his human flesh, not in His Divine Nature which is eternal and not subject to death. Scritpure affirms that Christ decended into Hades, that is into Paradise (This day you shall be with Me in Paradise).

IN Christ's death the shell of HIs humanity was broken and like the grain of wheat which falls into the earth and dies, so Christ died in HIs humanity. As the "death of the wheat releases the life in the core to sprout up bearing fruit, so Christ's death released the Divine Life within Him and through this Eternal Divine Life He was resurrected and glorified in His humanity.

Christ was God and Man, IN becomming Man He did not cease to be God. And in death He as God did not die in HIs divinity but only in His humanity. Only that humanity which He put on in incarnation died. God doesn't die. God is LIfe and God is Eternal. But God as a Man can die as a Man and still be God.

GraftedBranch

 2005/11/12 15:17Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: the dual natures of Christ

We have to understand that Christ has dual natures. As the Eternal God He is omnicient, immutable, eternal and possesses all the attributes of God. IN becomming man he did not cease to be God.

But in taking on and entering into His Creation, He became in this created humanity subject to all the things of the creature. That is He was mutable, changable (He grew in wisdom and knowlege) He was subject to hunger, to cold, to pain, and to everything the creature is subject to, even death.

Christ as Man lived a genuine human life. It was not the appearance of human life, He was the Last Adam. He was the Last Man of the Old Creation.

And in this Old Creation he died an all inclusive and redemptive death. It was His Divinity that gave His human blood the efficacy to redeem us all.

But HIs humanity was subject to death and in this Created Humanity He died. But by the "Power of and Endless LIfe" He rose from the dead. HIs Divine immutable LIfe permeated His dead created humanity, resurrecting it, glorifying it and bringing into the Divine Sonship (Romans 1:3)

As a Man He was then exalted and ascended and enthroned as Lord of All. A position He already held as God but one He now possessed as glorified Man (John 17:5).

Christ is the God/Man, fully God and fully Man forever united in One Person. He is the Mingling of the Eternal God with His created humanity bringing Divinity into humanity in incarntion and humanity into Divinity in resurrection(John 14:20), uniting Man with God and God with Man for eternity.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/12 15:39Profile





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