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Clutch
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Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Re:

Excellent points and "sticky wickets" all around!So,perhaps I can muddy the water some more by asking this question:"What can an Apostle do in the church?"
Romans 16:7(AV), " Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsman, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the APOSTLES, who were also in Christ before me". 1.Paul said, to salute theses two apostles; 2.which were not ONLY apostles, but NOTEWORTHY apostles.hmmmm.
I took the name Junia to my Thayer's Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament, and to my chagrin discovered that the name Junia in the Greek is a woman's name. This could only mean one of two things:
1. There was a Jewish boy in prison with Paul, who was also an apostle,and who had a female name. OR!
2.Junia was, as Porky would say: "a Fu Fee uh, a Fu Fee uh,......GIRL!"
Be all that as it may, my PERSONAL opinion on the difference between preaching and teaching is that: Preaching IS teaching with the desired outcome being ; that the hearer make a decision, and act on it. Teaching is an impartation of knowledge with the desired outcome being;that of wisdom. ;-)
Clutch :-P


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Howard McNeill

 2003/11/27 14:49Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Clutch
'Sticky wickets' I'm trying so hard to keep away from UK idioms here!

your quote: Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsman, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the APOSTLES, who were also in Christ before me..

1. Tozer is 'of note among many English Christians' i.e. many English Christians value him highly. Your reference could legitimately be interpreted this way. The word 'among' is that notorious preposition 'en' which usually means 'within' but can sometimes mean 'by'.
2. Robertson's Word Pictures says that Junia can be either masculine or feminine.
3. It is not certain that 'apostles' is being used in its technical sense here. The word really means someone authorised to accomplish something. 'apostellO' means 'I send'.
e.g. here are a few references for 'apostellO'
a. Matthew 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
but the soldiers were not 'apostles'

b. Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.
neither are angels 'apostles'

c. Matthew 21:3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
these two donkeys were not apostles, although I have known some donkeys who thought they were.:-D :-D

Here are a couple of instances of 'apostle' being translated as 'messengers'
2 Corinthians 8:23 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.
Philippians 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/27 16:25Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Nasher
your quote: would there be any difference where a person was teaching in regards to authority?
i.e. in a church building as opposed to a field.

I don't feel the scriptures prohibit women teaching outside the church. BUT my use of 'church' has nothing to do with buildings. If 'the church' is gathered in a field I think a woman teaching is not in accordance with the scripture. I think if another kind of meeting takes place in the 'meeting hall' that is not 'the church' a woman teaching might be appropriate.

Bet you're wishing you never started this! ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/27 16:44Profile
Clutch
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Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Re:

O.....K.....Philologos, :-D
It COULD mean more than only two things. :-o
I was stationed at RAF Alconbury 1970-72. Is Georgie Best still living? And do they still say Tah Luv at the market? ;-)
Clutch


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Howard McNeill

 2003/11/27 18:51Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

[b]2 Peter 2:1 (kjv)[/b] - But those were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying he Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Its intresting that Peter is stating that there were 'false prophets' before, but now the problem is 'false teachers.' Why the emphasis on teaching rather than prophecy? does this have part in this discussion thread? hmm


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/11/27 23:43Profile
philologos
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 Re:

your quote: Its intresting that Peter is stating that there were 'false prophets' before, but now the problem is 'false teachers.' Why the emphasis on teaching rather than prophecy? does this have part in this discussion thread? hmm

I think this is a sign of 'development' of the order of "I planted, Apollos watered". There is another interesting development in the rebukes to the churches in Revelation.

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate

deeds would be individual acts but doctrine/teaching speaks of a settled policy and is a further deteroration. It is much easier to correct individual deeds than to correct teaching

These are the kinds of scriptures that give me a sense that preaching and prophecy are often related to the push forward, whereas teaching is related to consolidation. I think the proclamation precedes the explanation.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/28 3:40Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
If 'the church' is gathered in a field I think a woman teaching is not in accordance with the scripture. I think if another kind of meeting takes place in the 'meeting hall' that is not 'the church' a woman teaching might be appropriate.



I suppose now we have to define when a meeting becomes a 'church' meeting. :-o


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Mark Nash

 2003/11/28 5:11Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
I suppose now we have to define when a meeting becomes a 'church' meeting.


[b]Matthew 18:20 (kjv)[/b] - For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

[b]Ephesians 2:20-22 (kjv)[/b] - And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So it clearly seems that a Church meeting is where individuals meet who are habitation's of God. Therefore a church meeting could consist of two individuals and God would be present amongst them as much as a building full of people. The condition is simply: 'For where two or three are gathered together in my name' and the promise is: 'there am I in the midst of them.'


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/11/28 10:50Profile
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 Re:

your quote: I suppose now we have to define when a meeting becomes a 'church' meeting.

You're getting the hang of this aren't you? ;-) Actually I think we may have to define when a meeting becomes a church! :-P I think this is what we have to do with bible study all the time. We must break through the prejudices and preconceptions and see what it actually says. Then, what it meant to the people who first read it, then what it means in my context.

I'll put an ancient quote of Wycliffe's on the Great Quotes thread. :-P


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/28 12:26Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

I think Greg is right when he says that "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" defines what is a church meeting.

I think the important thing here is the 'in my name', if two brothers / sisters in Christ go out to play ten pin bowling then this is not a church meeting.

But if they are doing a bible study together then this is a church meeting.

The question is, what activities define when a meeting of brothers / sisters in Christ become a church meeting?

Prayer?
Bible Study?
Praise?
All forms of worship?


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Mark Nash

 2003/12/1 5:38Profile





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