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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 The Israel Christian Hoax? Are modern Jews the Old Testament chose people of God?

Krispy brought up that modern Israelis are the Old Testament chosen people of God and still are today. It is interesting that I just read this article yesterday that attempts to debunk that way of thinking by modern Christians. I am not saying that I disagree with Krispy or that I agree with this article (which I did not) but would greatly appreciate any feed back or discussion on the Scriptural validity of the following point of view. I look foreword to any comments or discussion on the matter.

READ Carefully
You will have to think … these truths once understood
Will change your Faith forever.
The Israel Christian Hoax

Most Christians that have attended church for any length of time are led to believe that the Jew and the nation Israel are God’s chosen people. There seems to be this unwritten code in Christianity that Christians should honor people of Jewish faith as well as the nation Israel that we see today. In nearly any church, you will hear the pulpit often say, “pray for the peace of Jerusalem." Or the infamous “I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you” in reference to the nation Israel. Neither statement is applicable to Christianity today.

A few strange individuals developed most of the distorted Christian views about Israel, the Temple, and the Jew within the last 300 years. Most of these views stemmed from a false belief system that we are living in the last days. The false End Times eschatology regarding Israel preached by the Chicken Little’s of this generation is nothing more than biblical huxterisum.

Most churches will point at Israel today as a sign that we are living in the last days. From the battle of Armageddon to the 666 mark of the beast, Christians are taught that Jesus is coming soon to “Rapture” them out of this troubled world. After the rapture, the good Christians will go to heaven for 3 1/2 years. While they are in heaven playing harps, flutes, and floating on clouds, everyone “Left Behind” will eventually be destroyed in the final battle of Armageddon. After 3 1/2 years I suppose they will put down their harps, flutes, get off of their clouds, and return with dust busters to clean up the mess.

Christians are also taught that Israel will rebuild the Temple and the Antichrist (The Son of the Devil) will walk into the Temple and proclaim himself to be God. Oh brother, don’t you know that we are living in the last days? Jesus is coming soon! None of this is biblical and it can be easily proven to be in error by applying proper simple biblical hermeneutics.

In this article, I will destroy all false logic and doctrine concerning Israel. Without any REAL Jews on the earth there is a big hole in the escapism of all end times teaching. From Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, Tommy Ice, Lalonde, Perry Stone and especially Tim LaHaye coupled with the foolishness of Jerry Falwell they will all have a problem with the truths from God contained within this article.
I do believe however, that if Jesus were really coming soon he would throw most of these “Christian Airheads” into outer darkness because they never found out why they are here! These people have failed to realize that everything in heaven is okay and the real battle is down here. Their lives are void of a reality of Christ and they follow a false doctrine that has absolutely no life in it at all.
While I would love to take this opportunity to fully expose and kick your rapture fire escape ladder out from under you, I must stay with the matter at hand. The Israel/Christian Hoax. In the end it will punch a big hole in your blow up Jesus filled with helium and escapism. I mentioned all of this foolish escapism because I realize how embedded the false doctrines of Israel, the Temple, and the Jew are in Christianity.

I have put together a special life-changing package for you if you are waiting to be "Raptured" off of the planet at the end of this letter. I must warn you it will burn up your fire escape and POP your blow up Jesus.

I want to prove the following truths to you about the nation Israel in the Old Testament as well as the nation Israel today.

1. Old Testament Israel was Gentile in its origin.
2. Old Testament Israel was and never will be again.
3. There is no such thing as a Jew based on the blood type of a man.
4. The nation Israel today is nothing but another Gentile nation.
5. Not one person in Israel today can validate blood lineage to any of the original twelve tribes.
6. God never made a covenant with Old Testament Israel based on the blood type of a man.

You will have to think. If you do you will see. This is meat for the mature in Spirit.
Let’s begin with a simple understanding that Old Testament Israel was Gentile in its origin. God Almighty was going to send the entire world a spiritual message through a select few individuals. From Abraham to Christ, God worked through a few selected individuals to reveal man’s dilemma and his plan for all mankinds. While there was a specific purpose for Old Testament Israel, there is not a single biblical purpose for the nation Israel today.

In scripture Abraham is the one man that God chose to be the founding father of what would eventually become the nation Israel in the Old Testament. Abraham would also give us a glimpse of spiritual Israel. Every Christian realizes to some degree that the church is supposed to be "spiritual" Israel. Most Christians have heard this passage but few actually comprehended the gravity of these words. In one sentence, the apostle Paul revealed the ENTIRE spiritual purpose of natural Israel. With an even greater gravity, the same sentence executes the end of natural Israel. Since God started out with Abraham and ended with Christians

Gal 3:29 -29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (KJV)

Since God started out with Abraham and ended with Christians becoming the fulfillment of every promise made to Abraham then what was Israel? So what or who was Abraham? Where was he from? Was he a Jew? What is a Jew? Should Old Testament Israel be an example for Christianity or any nation or religion? Who are the people in Israel today? Are they really the people in the Old Testament? After all, who has not seen Charlton Heston in the Ten Commandments? Let My People Go! Are they not God’s chosen people? They are not even close as we shall see.
Where did Abraham come from?

Gen 11:27-28 -27 This is the genealogy of Terah: Terah begot Abram, Nahor, and Haran. Haran begot Lot.28 And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans. (NKJ)

By all biblical and historical accounts, we must declare that Abraham was a Gentile just like everyone else on the planet when he encountered God. To understand why God selected a few individuals and created a nation in the Old Testament called Israel, you must keep in mind that it had nothing to do with the blood type of a man. When God appeared to Abraham, he was not a Jew. There was no such thing as a Jew, Judaism, a Temple, and the word Israel was an unknown word.

Before we can understand the spiritual significance of what God was doing, we must first understand that Israel, the Temple, and the Jew were never a race of people on the earth. Even today, there is no such thing as a Jewish race.

When we trace the origin of Abraham we can see that Abraham was from a country that was just a little north of Kuwait. Abraham came from a place that was right in the middle of what most of us now know as the battleground for the Desert Storm war. A country we all know today as Iraq.

That Is Right. Abraham Was a Gentile from Iraq.

If Anyone Has a Right to Claim Blood Lineage to Abraham that would have to be the divine right of Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

With this simple biblical understanding, we must also declare that the other patriarchs in the Old Testament Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph were also Gentiles. In fact, every person that left Egypt in the exodus were also nothing more than Gentiles. What was God doing with this selected group of people in Cecil B. DeMille’s film, The Ten Commandments, proclaiming through Moses (also a Gentile) “Let My People Go?” Are any of the people in Israel today actually related in any manner to any of the people in the Old Testament? They are not even close.

Not a single theologian can dispute any of these facts. A rabbi who thinks that he is part of Old Testament Israel cannot dispute these facts. Abraham was a Gentile and so is the rabbi!
So what was Israel in the Old Testament? What was God doing with a select group of people? We have already seen that the founding fathers were not of any special blood type. They were Gentiles just like everyone residing in Israel today. That is right. You read correctly. I said everyone in Israel today is nothing more than Gentiles. Not a single individual in Israel today can prove they have any blood lineage to any of the twelve tribes of Old Testament Israel. I will prove it.

It does not matter what religion you practice. There is a message for all mankinds from God to you about Himself in the Old Testament. This small group of people was set apart by God to show the entire world man’s dilemma. It would reveal man’s futile attempts to become justified before God by the practice of organized religion, even when God had ordained that very religion.

In reality, every religion establishes itself on nothing but faith. Every religion must have the faith to believe that the gods they serve actually exist. Even an atheist has faith, he has to believe that God does not exist. Think about it. An atheist has to believe just as hard that there is not a God, as does a Christian in believing that there is a God. The God of the Old Testament was and always will be the God of faith. He only worked through a few selected individuals in the Old Testament who responded to Him on the basis of faith alone.

The God of the Old Testament had a relationship with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph for one reason. They each related to him by faith alone. It had absolutely nothing to do with Jew, Judaism, The Law, or a nation Israel.

It is critical for you as a Christian or a non-Christian to understand that the entire nation of the Old Testament Israel existed for only three reasons.

The birth of a messiah.
Heb 1:1-3 - 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (KJV)

Heb 2:16 -16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Gal 3:14 -14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (KJV)

Gal 3:29 - 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
God started out with Abraham, a Gentile that walked with God by faith, and ended up through Christ offering redemption to all mankind based on one thing, faith and obedience. In the Old Testament God never made a single covenant with anyone based on the blood type of a man. Every covenant that God made with man in the Old Testament was based on one thing, faith, and obedience.

I really do not like belaboring this point with you about Old Testament Israel. However, I feel it is critical to take away your inbred assumption that we had a "holy nation" of God's chosen people in the Old Testament Israel. If you will seriously study the Old Testament, you will come to only one conclusion. That nation spent the majority of its existence in REBELLION to God. Yet God continued to work through a few select individuals that related to Him by faith alone. I would say that anyone would be hard pressed to declare any nation wholly serving God.

The second reason the nation Israel existed was so that we might learn from their failures how to relate to God by faith alone.

Heb 3:16-19 - 16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Faith was never a strong character trait of the majority of the people in Old Testament Israel. The actual number of patriarchs of faith in the Old Testament is quite limited. This is why the nation repeatedly walked in cycles and patterns of sin and disobedience with God.

The third and final reason they existed briefly in history as a nation was to give us a clear picture of man’s futile religious attempts to justify himself before God. The whole thing was a complete set up. On one hand, we had a select few individuals like Abraham and patriarchs who related to God by faith and on the other hand, we have the rebellious nation as a whole. So rebellious and faithless were the people that from the minute they left Egypt they rebelled against God. Therefore, God introduced them to the law. By this God was giving the world a clear picture of how futile it is for man to attempt to appear righteous before God by practicing religion and the law.

The futility of practicing the law for justification of sin. READ!

Gal 3:21-29 -21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I would venture to say there is not one person in all of Israel today that could prove blood lineage to any of the original twelve tribes. As I said previously, the entire nation is full of nothing more than Gentiles from all over the world who are practicing some form of the Old Testament religion of Judaism. Please understand that my comments are not directed at people that want to practice some form of Judaism. I do not care what religion anyone practices. My comments are to Christians that have been taught that there is something special about Israel in order to promote political Christianity.
The people in Israel today are from over 100 different countries and speak over 85 different languages. Every true historian also agrees that well over 95 percent of all the “supposed” Jews in Israel today are of the Ashkenaz variety. To simplify a quick understanding of what most historians are saying about what kind of Jew is in Israel, think with me for a moment.

Gen 10:1-4 - 1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. (KJV)

If you believe the Bible, then you must agree that everyone came from three men. These men were the sons of Noah who were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. The people in the Bible from Abraham through Christ were from the line Shem. They were the ones that God took to the wilderness, gave them the law, and promised the world that a messiah would come through them.

The Jews that are in Israel today are not from the lineage of Shem. They were not chosen, they did not walk in the wilderness, or receive the law. In fact, they are not even related to anyone in the Old Testament. Not a single person practicing some illegitimate form of Old Testament Judaism in Israel today can prove that they are from the lineage of Shem. Most of the people in Israel today realize they are of the Ashkenaz Gentiles practicing some form of O.T. Judaism. Why would I say an illegitimate form of Old Testament Judaism? They have no offering for SIN according to the OT. If anyone has ever read the OT then you know the specific requirements for offering a sacrifice. Much less the numerous judgments that came immediately from God for offering "strange fire" or a defective sacrifice. If God were truly a part of what is being practiced by the Gentiles in Israel that are practicing some form of OT Judaism there would be many being STRUCK DEAD.

So who are the people in Israel today?

Most of them are historical descendants originating from the following historical account. Any good history book will validate these facts a long with the Encyclopedia Britannica. Anyone would be hard pressed to find a single historian that would dispute these historical facts. If they could, they would then have to produce someone with PROOF of blood lineage to one of the original twelve tribes. A fact no one can do.
King Bulan

Around the year 700, A. D. there was a King named Bulan that had an empire known as the Turks and Huns. His empire was all along the southern border of Russia, as well as, many parts of Europe. King Bulan decided to adopt a national religion for his country. He inquired about Christianity, Muslim, and Judaism. He selected Judaism as the national religion for his empire.
For around 300 years, these people practiced the religion of Judaism. They were not Jews. They were Turks and Huns who were from the lineage of Japheth, certainly not from the lineage of Shem. Please track with me a little more and I promise we will move on. I feel this is relevant to the world we live in today. If you are a Christian and you embrace Judeo-Christian values, I feel it is important that you understand what you are really embracing.

After 300 years and nearly eight generations of Turks and Huns practicing Judaism, it should not be that difficult for you to understand that people began to believe that these people were actual Jews. Remember that this happened in a vastly different time period than the high-powered media world that you live in. Over time I am sure the surrounding countries considered them to be Jewish.
Around the year 1,000 A. D. a war broke out between Russia and the Turks and Huns (Gentiles) that were practicing OT Judaism as a religion. Russia was the victor. So much so, that they drove the Turks and Huns or supposed Jews, whichever you prefer, completely out of their land. Guess where they drove them? To Poland and Germany. They developed their own language called Yiddish. Yiddish is a medieval German dialect with a mixture of Hebrew. It is not Hebrew. These people married into Polish and German families. They were the people that Hitler singled out for his horrendous Holocaust. None of them were from the lineage of Shem, the actual Jews of the Old Testament. From these Ashkenaz Jews, a movement emerged for political Zionism that would eventually lead to the establishment of the nation Israel that we see today.

Really Think About - What Really Happened in Old Testament Israel.

Remember God started out with one man that would relate to him by faith alone. Abraham, a Gentile from Iraq. God could have used anyone on the planet. Everyone was a Gentile when God chose Abraham. The selection by God was based on faith, not race, or blood type. No one on the planet ever had divine favor with God because of his or her blood type.

In Old Testament Israel

When they left Egypt, they were still Gentiles. They wandered in the wilderness for 40 years because they failed to relate to God by faith and obedience. Because they could not relate to God by faith, God added the law.

That corrupt nation with the Law given to them directly from God Himself proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that a nation cannot be made justified or moral before God by observing a single natural civil or moral law.

Morally and ethically the Old Testament example of Israel proved they were incapable of obeying both civil and moral laws, even when that Law came to them directly from the finger of God Himself. They were not the example for the world to follow. A thousand times no! At best, they were the worst and best natural example from God Himself of what will never work.

I personally feel that Old Testament Judaism practiced the law to perfection and Christianity prostitutes the grace and mercy of God to perfection. God has already sent forth judgment upon the men in this generation that prostitutes the Gospel for a dollar. You will see it happen! If He does not come in this generation with judgment; then He must resurrect the Pharisees and apologize to them. Jesus declared that they were of "their father the devil." If they were pronounced to be the sons of satan then what are the men of this generation? Today it is not hard to comprehend that Jesus would make the same declaration to the supposed "anointed leaders" of this generation who are not anointed, but are nothing more than self appointed businessmen. In the end you will find no hypocrisy in the King of Heaven! He will declare to the men of this generation "You are of your father the devil."
Even governmentally the leaders of Old Testament Israel were selected, anointed, and appointed by God Himself just as he gives some apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers to the church. From the beginning of King Saul through King David and Solomon, election in Israel was by divine appointment. This was a type and shadow for the reality of what the church (spiritual Israel) was to become.

The entire New Testament exposes the futility of Judaism in its attempt to obtain justification with God by practicing the Law. The entire nation existed for a couple of reasons biblically and that was to expose man’s sin problem and his need for a Redeemer. That is why the Temple and the Levitical priesthood were destroyed completely in 70 A. D. The last prophecy recorded about the Temple was spoken by Christ Himself when he declared that there would not be one stone left standing. That prophecy is still in effect today!

Matt 24:1-2 - 1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Furthermore, Christ declared that the entire Levitical priesthood had become so corrupt that they were of their father of the devil as I have previously stated. However there is more understanding to yet be discovered. While they claimed Abraham to be their father, they were still clueless of how to relate to God by faith and obedience alone. Read these profound words.

John 8:44 - 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (KJV)

If you are a Christian stop and think with me about what Christ was not only saying but also doing. The Son of God was actually proclaiming that the very institution ordained from God had become so corrupt that Satan was in charge. Few realize that Jesus' ministry accomplished TWO things. Salvation for mankinds and the destruction of organized religion even when God ordained that religion. His ministry exposed the futility and corruption that can infiltrate a religious system. Is it any wonder that after 2000 years we would find it odd that the enemy controls the pulpit?

Furthermore, his manner of speaking in these two scriptures clearly exposed that God was going to abolish not only the Temple but the futility of the Levitical priesthood as well. Jesus pronounced judgment on the very system that God had ordained. Historically, we can see his word was true. There is no Temple and there never will be a legitimate Levitical priesthood again! I am sure the Ashkenaz Gentiles practicing Judaism in Israel today may eventually create some biblical form of Old Testament Judaism. When they do, it will be about as bogus as Christians giving them creditability based on blood type of a man! A vastly overlooked part of the ministry of Christ is his open condemnation of corrupt organized man-made religion.

If you are a Christian and do not see that the Old Testament, the Temple, and Judaism under the law was defective, then what are you doing in the church? If you do not understand that natural Old Testament Israel was an example of what God does not want from a church, shame on you. Old Testament Israel was not an example of how a nation or a church should serve God. Have you any idea how much of a REPROACH it is to God to send money to Israel in hopes of helping them rebuild the temple one day? The foolishness of Christianity and the Israeli Hoax is a massive deception. To think that you are living in the last days waiting for the Anti Christ to walk in the temple and proclaim himself to be God is just plain stupid. Who has bewitched you?

Yes, they were real people with real lives and we are to learn from their lives. They were nothing more than a tutor so that we might gain understanding of how to walk with God by faith alone. They were failures at faith so that we might see and learn. God used a few men of faith and millions who failed to teach us all. He kept the law isolated to this small group of mainly rebellious people in order to teach everyone that He is the God of faith! He also kept the law isolated to this small group of people to expose the futility of man’s attempt to justify his flesh with ordinances and observances. He kept the law isolated to this small group of people to expose the deathtrap of organized man made religion. This was not a message just for Christianity; it was a clear message for all religions on the earth created by man.

They are not an example of a godly nation then and especially not now. How could anyone today expect a goat, a sheep, or even a red heifer to pay for their own immoral sinful behavior? Only pagan forms of witchcraft have animal sacrifices today equal to what took place in Old Testament Israel. God Himself abolished Israel, the Temple, and the Jew. He used them to expose man’s need for salvation apart from the law and organized religion.
Heb 10:1-9 - 1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you had no pleasure. 7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— in the volume of the book it is written of Me— to do Your will, O God.' “ 8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. (NKJ)

Judaism and those who attempt to practice it is still the most incomplete religion on the earth today. They talk about Moses and the Law, yet they do not have atonement for sin according to their own religious Old Testament beliefs. My reason for addressing Judaism so openly and blatantly is because of its supposed ties to Christianity. Real Christianity knows that they are the fulfillment of the promises of the God of the Old Testament.

There never has been and there never will be a covenant with the one true God based on the blood type of a man. As it was for believing Abraham (the Gentile) so it will be for you also, only faith and obedience. God started out with a Gentile that related to him by faith. If you are a Christian that relates to God by faith, you are the total fulfillment of the very reason Old Testament Israel existed. READ THAT LAST SENTENCE AGAIN. End of story! There is nothing past that!

If you are a Christian, you must also recognize that many people do not desire to be a part of your denominational Christianity. With all of the hypocrisy within Christianity today, is it any wonder why. Denominationalism is nothing more than racism in its purest form within the Body of Christ. If we can find the real Body of Christ, there will not be a denomination. It will not be this ethereal movement of unity that you hear so much about today where we can all come together as one. A thousand times no! It will be the total opposite. There will be a clear a separation by a group of people who will not compromise truth for a chance to eat a meal with those who embrace false doctrines of demons.
When you hear the cry for Unity, Denominationalism, READ this.

1 Cor 5:9-13 - 9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner-- not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." (NKJ)

In your religious Christian piety you must realize that God alone opens the eyes of the blind and not you. Preaching the gospel is not trying to shove your brand of organized denominational religion down everyone else’s throat. There are few that really know how to preach the Gospel because there are few willing to PAY the price. Learn to love, accept, and forgive those who are spiritually blind by walking in meekness before God and man. Then, perhaps you will become real salt and real light and not just another religious hypocrite like the Pharisees in the Old Testament.
Contend for the Real Faith
Rick Johnston

Patrick Ersig

 2005/9/14 13:56Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: The Israel Christian Hoax? Are modern Jews the Old Testament chose people of God?

As a student of the History of the Jews let me first off warn anyone who reads this tractate that it is so filled with misrepresentations, error and falsehood, that I should have to spend the whole of a month exposing it all. It is difficult to read all at once because it evokes such resentment.

Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/14 15:03Profile


Hmmm... Replacement Theology to the core.

I reject it.


 2005/9/14 15:08

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Here is a good place to start if you are really interested in Jewish/Christianity issues. This is a very long thread- but contains a wealth of debate.

[url=]The Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith[/url]

Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/14 15:10Profile

 Re: The Israel Christian Hoax? Are modern Jews the Old Testament chose people of God?

here's where I bailed out:

Without any REAL Jews on the earth there is a big hole in the escapism of all end times teaching.

classic jew hater, that Rick Johnson.

 2005/9/14 15:28

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Confusing...

This is all rather contradictory it seems. From the standpoint of what he is attempting to state, it seems to recall the idea of seting up a scarecrow (Edit: Ah... "Straw-man" to be more accurate) and knocking it back down again...

Stranger still, perusing his site, with links to many that would find some common amens here... [i]Art Katz[/i]? Don't know how possibly more confusing than combing this here with Art's particular sentiments you could get.

With you as well Robert, much was lost in credulity right from the get go. The heart, why is the heart being so slighted... just the first principles, evaded.

Mike Balog

 2005/9/14 15:44Profile

Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131


This is where he lost me:

Please understand that my comments are not directed at people that want to practice some form of Judaism. I do not care what religion anyone practices.

If Anyone Has a Right to Claim Blood Lineage to Abraham that would have to be the divine right of Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

But didn't Abraham LEAVE UR (present day IRAQ) and settle in present day Israel...therefore the people of Iraq don't have much blood lineage to Abraham because he left with his entire family.

That is similar to saying the following:
John Doe was born in Canada, then him and his entire family left and went to Britian, therefore if anyone can claim to be a decendant of John Doe it is the Canadians.

When is all is the Britians.

 2005/9/14 16:48Profile

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK


mmh? do I want to get into this?
I dislike the whole spirit of the article and would never call the current understanding a hoax. However, I do struggle with the general consensus of evangelicals (esp in the USA) that there is a detailed future programme for the 'restored Israel' and that they will be the end time evangelists. I have said enough on my comments on Art Katz' eschatology elsewhere on this site.

I do think there is a lot of thinking about the connections between the words Jew/Israel/Abraham/ which I cannot receive. With so much of this I just have to say 'I am not convinced'. I am not convinced that the nation state of Israel is the carrier of the ancient promises to Israel.

I am often branded as 'replacement theology' although I don't like this phrase personally. Some things are clearly 'replaced', some are 'fulfilled'.

Ron Bailey

 2005/9/14 16:54Profile

Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California



"Hmmm... Replacement Theology to the core."

Hi Krispy,

Does Replacement Theology basically state that because the Jews have rejected their own Messiah, they are no longer the chosen people of God, and the old covenant has ended. (cut off from the vine so to speak) and that Christians having accepted the Messiah are Gods new chosen people, and the new covenant begins? (graphed on to vine so to speak)

If this is what Replacement Theology is, then what are the specific problems you find with it and what are some good resources dealing with both sides of the issue.

Thanks Krispy,

Patrick Ersig

 2005/9/14 16:57Profile

 Re: The Israel Christian Hoax? Are modern Jews the Old Testament chose people of God?


This article falls way below the usual standard of what you bring for our attention.

Can't you 'hear' the 'attitude' in it? And see, as crsschk says, the author has chosen premises to disprove which are not initially valid?

I am not saying that I disagree with Krispy or that I agree with this article (which I did not) but would greatly appreciate any feed back or discussion on the Scriptural validity of the following point of view. I look foreword to any comments or discussion on the matter.

READ Carefully
You will have to think … these truths once understood
Will change your Faith forever.

It's not clear whether the 'READ Carefully' was put there by you, but, the phrase 'these truths' should have made you stop and think, whether you wrote it or not, as you at first appear to be asking a genuine question. If so, there is no need to bias the reader by telling them the article is true.

For me, the ulitmate give-away is the reference to 'blood type'. That's where I baled out.

 2005/9/14 17:03

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