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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Laura Bush Calls Criticism Of Husband 'Disgusting'

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 Re: Neither...

Hi Chris from Texas,

I have noticed that a few certain believers within the SermonIndex community are often vocal critics of President Bush. They use the forums as an opportunity to state biased political beliefs, and then feign that they are non-political. Interestingly, some of these same believers are very quiet when other politicians (particularly "liberal" politicians) spew hatred toward "conservative" beliefs, or toward the rights of believers in America. Perhaps they are not as "non-political" as they think.

are you referencing me?

the only reason I even ask that, is that if man says he is a believer in Christ, he's held to a higher standard. Therefore, when he brings a nation state to war, his hands should be clean, and the policy decision to do this, not rooted and birthed in deceit.

The problem I have with this administration is their tendency towards reflexive deceit as a policy choice. If they are godly leaders, than they model to the world how a believer in Christ does things. To date, the inherent deceit within a publicly acknowledged Christian leader, bush is quite poor, and to a new believer (me) really really depressing.

and you know what else, if I thought for ONE SECOND that the republican party was serious about ENDING abortion on demand, I'd be voting republican until the Lord returns

If to be a 'christian' means I have to act walk think and talk like bush/rove/delay/frist, i want nothing to do with that, it's fleshly goobledegoop...away with it!!

lower case christianity is hellishly religious, because it's so spiritually bankrupt , hypocritical, and denuded of the Holy Spirit.

where are the other guys who live on the far side of the Jordan, dress in rags, eat bugs, and radically and fearlessly love God?

where are they?

 2005/9/10 19:51


yep....I feel all that too.

one thing you said:

I believe this is the last wake-up call for Christians, with Katrina.

I think there's maybe one or two more really nasty ones yet to come.... man-made.

another thing, you know why the Lord is raising up the church in China?

He's annointing it for burial.


 2005/9/10 19:58

Joined: 2003/12/1
Posts: 124
New Jersey


GrannieAnnie wrote:
We're on the same page MD, but just a different paragragh, as you can see where I agree with you here . But "to know the times", as in "knowledge", is through-out The Word of God. We are to have "knowledge" before we vote or back up anything. "Christians", having "the mind of Christ", Should be the most well versed and knowledgable people on earth, for more reasons then I could begin to post here, else, we make fools of ourselves and witness, in front of a dying world, plus risk being deceived ourselves, in These days.

Hi Annie,

I understand where you're coming from. However my concern is precisely what you mentioned here. Christ and the apostles had that personal knowledge about governing authorities and yet it never triggered any critical response from them. Their focus was on something else which is the furtherance of God's kingdom. It seems that if the apostles and others were not sent to confront personally the specific sin/s of a particular individual, they covered them (as in "cover their nakedness") by their public silence although I believe they were vocal about this to the Lord.

God bless.


Rey O.

 2005/9/10 22:28Profile

 Re: Annie

Neil, I'm with ya all the way on your posts, except ... do I 'have' to eat bugs to answer :-? ? (Trib food-ha)

Yes, on the "man-made" part for sure. Without a doubt, we ain't seen nothin' yet.

But what I feel about the last "wake-up call", is that if folks can't SEE what really happened last week and as far as I hear, still going on down in N.O., then I doubt that if 40,000 deaths doesn't wake folks up, that 400,000 will.

There will always be someone else to blame for these tragedies .... when I believe, you said it without even meaning it that way ... these things are 'man-made' and that is what the Tribulation will be (or is).

God, will/or has, let His Hand off, and now, as in Babel, "nothing will be impossible to them" (technologically/biologically/etc) and they, with the help of their 'father' Lucifer, who by the way, they worship already and openly, will just about "destroy the earth" and the majority of the inhabitants in it, with their technology ... at least that's their plan for us, as they've written it.

And I think we've all read verses to that effect before.

No, I haven't been able to post to this thread 'easily'... it pains me very badly, because I know when the reality hit me, back when, I was as one who was in a state of having been to the funeral of my closest relative.
I can't even tell you how many tears I shed when God was showing me, "It's over" and I didn't want to believe it or 'let go' of what my Hopes were neither.
I had such Hope and as most do, I love my family so much. So I sure feel it inside, all over again, with these postings today ... empathetically.

But starting a bon-fire wasn't my desire for today here either. But my heart just finally exploded from what was building up inside since last Monday or actually since 9/11/01.

Peace & Pray one for another.

 2005/9/10 22:35


Hi Brother Rey,
I think I gave the example of John the Baptist exposing Herod's sin. Lost his head for that one.

The early Church fathers, who sat under the Apostles, spoke of the end times and what to watch for too. Besides Daniel, Jeremiah, Amos, Joel, Isaiah, some of the Psalms, etc. besides all the prophecy in our New Testament.

That is the 'only' way I get talking "politics"; is when it is held up against God's warning to us, to "watch" and how things are lining up for His Blessed Appearing.

Here's a good one, with the Happy Ending ....

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

God Bless you also.

Edit to add: I almost forgot, The King of Kings words to Herod, in Luk 13:32. :-)

 2005/9/10 22:45

Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.


Krispy wrote: "These people who are crying racism should look at the mayor of New Orleans (who happens to be African American) and ask him where all the money went that the federal government has sent them in the past (millions and millions of dollars) that was appropriated toward upgrading those levies. It all disappeared... where I come from thats called misappropriation of funds."

You mite want to do some more research. the money that was going to the levies were cut by none other then mr.Bush It's also the army corp. that dose the work. when you call some one a thief get the fact's
Also at Charity hospital the head doctor had to stand by while the rich were being taken from Tulane by helicopter. his patience were just ignored, two died while waiting, they were later taken out by trucks.
there is shame on america for the handing of americans in need

 2005/9/10 23:38Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA


You might want to give this a look, posted it elsewhere but it does appear that there is a bit more to be taken into consideration.

[url=]Gone With the Water[/url]

Mike Balog

 2005/9/11 0:34Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


it does appear that there is a bit more to be taken into consideration.

Wow. (edit: amazingly accurate prediction...)

I sense the levee of blame is about to break...

Mike Compton

 2005/9/11 0:57Profile

Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania


Being a traitor to ones country is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

You have innocent blood on your hands if you vote for one person who supports abortion.

In Christ,

Gary Eckenroth

 2005/9/11 1:15Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4587

 Heal our Land...

Hi Neilgin1...

This is Chris, but [i]not[/i] from Texas. I only attend school here. I'm not actually [i]from[/i] Texas, but I was raised on the east coast (mostly in Virginia Beach). My parents now live near Nashville, so I guess I am sort of a "nomad." In fact, I have relatives all over the country (from Hawaii, California to New England), and I have had the chance to visit with most of them. So I feel familar with just about every part of the country, except for the midwest and the extreme south.

No, I wasn't particularly referencing you in my last post, although you do often seem to be a very vocal critic of the President or the "right wing" of American politics. I guess that the only concern that I have about such vocal criticism of the right is that you don't seem to be as vocally critical of the left. Yes, those who claim to be believers should hold themselves to higher standards. But as with most men of God in the Bible, the standards that we hold men to often are never obtained by men. Also, such criticism that is directed at particular individuals in politics (or an entire group of stereotypes, like the "white evangelicals" that you mentioned) can often make your message seem directed at [i]individuals[/i], rather than at any type of root cause.

Over the past year or so, I have noticed some very sincere believers in the forum direct some questionable accusations at the President or even other ministers. While it is a good thing to question everything (in fact, we are commanded to in I Thessalonians 5:21), it seems that at least some people have posted more from preconceived prejudices rather than inarguable fact. Most of these critics do not know the President. In fact, most have never met him. They rely on resources that come from secondhand sources, or often, a media that is particularly critical of the stand of conservatives on social issues (even if it is hypocritical, as some suggest).

In graduate school, one of the first things that we were taught was to stop relying on secondhand sources for information and research (such as books, magazines and even academic or professional journals). All such works, according to the standards of true research, are opinionated and inadvertantly biased. So graduate students are required to travel and research original documents and sources. Recently, I traveled to the Carter Center and the Jimmy Carter Presidential Library. There, I obtained original, firsthand documents that dispelled many of the rumors, myths and "urban legends" about certain key events during the Carter Administration. I believe that all Christians should share such a similar desire to find truth in all matters. Instead of making populist blanket accusations about matters, firsthand or documented truth (or "proof") allows a person to understand the real story of such matters, and not what is reported by the media (or even the "underground" media).

Like I said before, most Americans do not know the President of the United States. Yet many of them have made terrible claims about him, judging his heart and motives by what they perceive to be truth. And unfortunately, some people have made statements based on rumors that they have heard or articles published in the media, rather than on unbiased fact. Remember, things are [i]usually[/i] not always what they appear to be. Even with this war, some have made blanket accusations about his motivation:

"The problem I have with this administration is their tendency towards reflexive deceit as a policy choice. If they are godly leaders, than they model to the world how a believer in Christ does things. To date, the inherent deceit within a publicly acknowledged Christian leader, bush is quite poor, and to a new believer (me) really really depressing."

While it is indeed saddening to see deceit being practiced in politics, it is quite possible that the Administration was [i]mistaken[/i] when deciding to take action in Iraq. Perhaps, like Colin Powell has repeatedly said, the intelligence of the United States, Russia and the United Kingdom did seem to indicate that Saddam Hussein held weapons of mass destruction that he had at one time indicated that he was willing to use against the United States, the United Kingdom and Israel.
"If to be a 'christian' means I have to act walk think and talk like bush/rove/delay/frist, i want nothing to do with that, it's fleshly goobledegoop...away with it!!"

This is probably one of the biggest arguments used today [i]against becoming a [u]Christian[/u][/i]. I often speak to non-believers who use this argument for why they never become Christians. They see alot of hypocrisy from television evangelists or local "believers," and they decide that they are "better off" without joining such hypocrisy. We are never supposed to "walk, think and talk" like anyone other than [u]Jesus[/u]. Every other "example" will let us down.

Even many of our Biblical "heroes" have some checkered pasts. David was a man of war -- who even murdered one of his thirty "mighty men" because of getting his wife pregnant. He made a terrible example of himself in the eyes of many people. Yet he is still considered a "man after God's own heart." In fact, when Hezekiah cried out to God concerning his health and the safety of his city, God spoke to him through the prophet Isaiah:
6And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and [b]for my servant David's sake[/b].

II Kings 20:6

Other men of God from the Word have made terrible mistakes. Noah got drunk. Abraham chose to discard God's promise and impregnate Hagar. Jacob was a deceiver. Moses hit the rock twice. Peter lived a double standard. We could go on to name many other figures of the faith who made terrible mistakes. I fear that if one of them was an elected official today, many believers would want to impeach him.

As I stated in my earlier post, I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat. Yes, I am white. And I am evangelical (well, in the sense that I hope to win the lost). But I am conservative on some issues and liberal on others. And I only vote for a particular candidate after much prayer (and often, fasting). There are some issues that stand out more than others, like abortion. While it is conceivable that some conservatives really do not care about stopping abortion, they will almost always do more to stop it than liberals -- especially in their appointment of Judges. Since conservatives took control of Congress in late 1994, abortions in the United States have decreased dramatically (from about 1,350,000 in 1994 to about 850,000 in 2001 -- a decrease of 38%). In fact, the number of abortions in 2004 was the lowest since 1975. During this same period of time, teen pregnancies also decreased by about 20% (source: CDC National Health Statistics, June 2005). Many point to the increased teaching of abstinence as a direct cause for such a decrease.

Support for abstinence based sexual education did [u]not[/u] come from liberal politicians. On the contrary, many liberal political figures support teaching "practical" sex education (passing out condoms and teaching how to have "safe" sex) to students as young as 9 years old. Anyone remember David Dinkins? If not, there is a sermon by David Wilkerson that speaks about this former Democratic mayor of NYC and his support for groups like NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association), which supports eventually lowering the legal age of consent to 8 years old. Dinkins also supported "homosexual normalcy" education taught in NYC schools (remember "[i]Heather Has Two Mommies[/i]?"). Dinkins further supported teaching children as young as the 2nd grade how to use "oral dams" which are used for oral sex.

Like I stated earlier, I have never met President Bush, so I don't know that I can judge that he [u]is[/u] or [u]is not[/u] a real believer. Only God can judge the heart of a man. We are left only with an ability [i]through the Word[/i] to judge the actions of a person. But like I stated before, we cannot base "fruit inspection" on a single piece of fruit. How many Christians are willing to burn down an entire orchard because they found one bad piece of fruit. I am just hopeful that such people will not face a similar judgment of their own lives.

I implore everyone (as a brother in the faith) to pray for President Bush. Remember that "[i]the king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will[/i]" (Proverbs 20:1). God can hear our prayers, and act on behalf of this nation. The heart of President Bush is in God's hand. When Bill Clinton was going through all of the Monica Lewinsky affair, I felt that Christians should pray for him, rather than gossip about him. I did not agree with most of Bill Clinton's social or moral ideas. But I saw him as a man that had a great potential to be used for God if he would just wholeheartedly seek God's face. I feel the same way about the current President. If believers would pray for him as often as they speak against him, perhaps some great things could happen.

Perhaps America [u]is[/u] (or [i]is becoming) Babylon[/i]. Should we just sit by and let secular humanish become a norm without opposition? Of course not! But while things can often seem bleak, remember that the God knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). Never forget the promise of God, as mentioned in that verse that most of us know so well:
" 14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

II Chronicles 7:14



 2005/9/11 2:02Profile

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