SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : King Saul and the medium

Print Thread (PDF)

PosterThread
5nva
Member



Joined: 2003/8/15
Posts: 179


 King Saul and the medium

I would like to ask what others insight on this scripture and subject might be.

In 1 Samuel 28 most of us know that king Saul went to a medium to contact Samuel. My question is in reference to 1 Samuel 28:19 where it says "therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me".

This is apparently Samuel speaking to Saul through the medium, or is it. Is this really Samuel speaking this or is it a lying spirit? Where is Samuel saying Saul and his sons will be?

I for one have always believed that when one dies they either go on to eternity to be with the Lord or go into eternal hell. This scripture is a bit of a mystery to me in that if Samuel was in heaven would not then Saul and his sons would be there.

Well, I could go on and on with questions but I think you get my point. One thought I had was that maybe Samueal was saying he would be before the Lord for judgement.

Just seeking to learn from what others may have to say.

Thanks and god bless.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2005/9/5 22:43Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: King Saul and the medium

Wesley stated: "If it was not Samuel, but an other spirit in his shape, it is not true, that Saul perceived it was Samuel."

Matthew Henry: "We have here the conference between Saul and Satan."

The Geneva Study Bible: "...it was Satan, who to blind his eyes took on him the form of Samuel..."

I never noticed this, but read how the spirit appeared:

"And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice...And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth."

And then the spirit said, "Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?"

Although I used to think that it was actually Saul, it may be that it was a demon in disguise, just as Saul was in disguise (Saul may have gotten a taste of his own medicine).

Two of the figures in the story spoke of 'gods' or spirits ascending upward out of the earth. I don't remember this ever happening with a dead saint or with Christ, etc. David saw the angel of the LORD stand between earth and heaven. The Holy Ghost descended from heaven in the form of a dove. The spirits of Moses and Elias were seen after Peter, John, and James went upward on the mountain to pray with Jesus. The light Paul saw was from heaven. My point is that I'm leaning now that it is a lying spirit.

So if it was a lying spirit, the demon may have been foretelling Saul's destruction by saying, ""therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me." Reading over Saul's life is depressing. I can't say what his final standing was with the LORD, but his life was full of rebellion.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/9/5 23:34Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

“Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.” (1Sam. 28:11-12, KJVS)
The medium was clearly taken by surprise by what happened here. The question is 'why was she surprised?'. I think the most likely reason is that this 'manifestation' was unlike those that she was used to. One possibility is that God interrupted this seance and the one who appeared was indeed Samuel.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/7 5:03Profile
roman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/18
Posts: 41


 Re:

This is my first time to hear such interpretation that it maybe not Saul but somebody else (demon lying spirit). Interesting!

Certainly there are still a lot of stuff I need to hear.

Anyway, just a thought, if God appeared / spoke to Balaam (who is not a Jew neither a believer) to speak blessing to Israel and to prevent him (Balaam) from speaking curse to Israel, why can't God use a medium to deliver a message to Saul?



 2005/9/9 2:30Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Saul went to see a women that had a "familiar" spirit.

It seems that demon power can be right sometimes.

Act 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

Can someone "bring up the dead?" Can it still happen today?

I'm just throwing some thoughts out there....


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/9/9 8:58Profile
5nva
Member



Joined: 2003/8/15
Posts: 179


 Re:

One of my main questions in my original post was this.

My question is in reference to 1 Samuel 28:19 where it says "therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me".

I believe it was Saul that went to the medium. I'm not sure if it was Samuel that spoke to Saul through the medium but if it was what did he mean by the above statement "you will be with me". Was not Samuel with the Lord? Was Samuel saying Saul would be with the Lord or before the Lord?

More questions running through my mind.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2005/9/9 9:10Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Eternity...

Hi 5nva...!

Quote:
"My question is in reference to 1 Samuel 28:19 where it says "therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me".

I believe it was Saul that went to the medium. I'm not sure if it was Samuel that spoke to Saul through the medium but if it was what did he mean by the above statement "you will be with me". Was not Samuel with the Lord? Was Samuel saying Saul would be with the Lord or before the Lord?"

That is an interesting question! Some time ago, there was a forum discussing the judgment. In it, we discussed the concept of eternity. What happens when someone dies? There are several ideas on this, but most agree on one of the following:

1. [b]There are those who believe that the dead are are immediately standing before the Lord[/b]. They are judged and those who died long ago have already received their judgment at the Judgment Seat of Christ, while the unbelievers will wait to be condemned at the Great White Throne. There are alot of "testimonies" of people who claim to have died and visited Heaven, and while there, saw dead believers (including family members).

2. [b]There are those who believe that believers are immediately taken to [i]Abraham's Bosom[/i] (or [i]paradise[/i])[/b]. This has been interpreted to range anywhere from a sort of "judgment purgatory" to literally standing with Abraham and the rest of the righteous as they await judgment. In this ideology, [i]paradise[/i] (or Abraham's Bosom) is seen as the holding place for believers and the righteous, while [i]hell[/i] is seen as the holding place for the unrighteous that await the final judgment (where death and hell will be thrown in the Lake of Fire).

3. [b]There are those who believe that those who die (both saved and unsaved) are [i]asleep[/i][/b]. They are awaiting the "trumpet sound of God" to [i]awaken[/i] them from the physical and spiritual slumber. According to this theory, all that have died in the past and in the future will [i]awaken[/i] at the same time -- at the trumpet call of God. At this point, the Lord will return to seperate and judge the nations.


There are those of us who believe that the concept of "eternity" is misunderstood by many theologians. There are some concepts in the Word of God that seemingly contradict one another concerning the idea of eternity. For instance, Jesus told the thief on the cross that, "[i]Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise[/i]." Luke 23:43 KJV. There is also the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. It tells how the rich man dies and goes to Hell while Lazarus is taken to Abraham's bosom. Yet there are also other Scriptures that speak of [i]the dead in Christ will arise first[/i] at the Lord's return. And of course, there are verses that indicate that the dead are still [i]asleep[/i] here on the earth, where they [i]rest[/i]. One of those is the passage in which you indicated, where Samuel is summoned from his [i]rest[/i] by the witch of Endor. Other verses that contend for the "sleep theory" are the stories in which Jesus told people not to weep for the dead, because they are "[i]only asleep[/i]," like Mary and Martha's brother, Lazarus, and the little girl he raised from the dead (Luke 8:52, John 11, etc...).

Remember, time is an earthly concept. Such a created concept has no grasp on eternity. I believe that when a person dies, they rest. At the moment of the "trumpet call," we will arise from our rest. At that point, those who have died throughout human history will arise or awaken from their slumber. We pass from what is earthly (and temporary) into a realm of eternity (which has neither a past nor future). To those who have died, this slumber seems almost [i]instantaneous[/i]. They die, and they seem to immediately awake to see those who died before them -- and even those who died [u]after[/u] them. Time has no meaning in eternity. That is why "[i]a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day[/i]." From eternity, the earthly universe that God created can be seen -- from start to finish.

It is my belief that the spirit that spoke to Saul was that of Samuel. The story is written in the third person, who was [u]inspired[/u] by God to write it down. At least five times in this passage, the [i]third person[/i] writer wrote down that the spirit [u]was[/u] indeed that of Samuel (verse 12, 14, 15, 16, 20). When Samuel told Saul that "...[i]to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me[/i]," he didn't mean that Saul was going to be with him in Abraham's bosom, or in Hell, or in any other type of holding place. He meant that he would be in the [u]grave[/u] -- [b]dead[/b]. So it appears that Samuel was literally brought up from his slumber (or rest) in the grave.

I Samuel 28:12-20 KJV
Quote:
12And when [b]the woman saw Samuel[/b], she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And [b]Saul perceived that it was Samuel[/b], and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15And [b]Samuel said to Saul[/b], Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16[b]Then said Samuel[/b], Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

19Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

20Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, [b]because of the words of Samuel[/b]: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.



:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/9/9 11:14Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I believe it was Saul that went to the medium. I'm not sure if it was Samuel that spoke to Saul through the medium but if it was what did he mean by the above statement "you will be with me". Was not Samuel with the Lord? Was Samuel saying Saul would be with the Lord or before the Lord?


I think this may have meant nothing more than 'dead like me'. I doubt that this passage of scripture is designed to tell us much about the 'intermediate state'.

However, the transfer of 'anointing' from Saul to David is an interesting OT passage. “Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” (1Sam. 16:13-14, KJVS) The Spirit that was 'upon' each man at different times was, of course, the Holy Spirit but it was the Holy Spirit in his 'kingly anointing' role. This is not dealing with Saul's 'eternal welfare' but with his earthly destiny and that of David.

Can you see what I am trying to convey? That this anointing of the Spirit was to do with 'kingship' and not personal piety or faith. We may deduce, from other passages of scripture, whether or not we think Saul was finally 'saved', but that is not the topic being revealed at this point. Saul may yet have found repentance even though his earthly destiny had been forever ruined.

Saul may yet have joined Samuel in the 'intermediate state'. His public failure as king did not prevent his personal restoration to God.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/9 13:22Profile
5nva
Member



Joined: 2003/8/15
Posts: 179


 Re:

Ron:

Yes, I understand what you are saying. Perhaps I'm making this more complicated than it is and trying to exract something that isn't there. I was thinking the same thing about Samuel meaning that Saul would be dead when he said he would be with him.

Thanks,

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2005/9/9 13:53Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy