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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : John Calvin

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi YeshuaIsmyGod,

Quote:
JOHN CALVIN; WHO MURDERED MICHAEL [u]CALVITUS[/u] BY PUBLICLY BURNING HIM AT THE STAKE IN GENEVA SWITZERLAND AND WHO LATER BECAME THE FOUNDER OF PRESBYTERIANISM and THE BAPTISTS; coined the blasphemous "Replacement Theology" [u]which seeks to promote the LIE that "ISRAEL is now replaced by the christian church"[/u].



The man's name was [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus]Michael Servetus[/url].

I am thoroughly familiar with the Messianic's position on replacement theology. I would encourage you to use caution with the term. Reason being is that many Christians do not have a real grasp of the issues and most I have ever spoken with do not believe that the Church 'replaced' Israel, but that they are seperate. The whole point of taking on 'replacement theology' is an attempt to distance Messianic Judaism from main stream Christianity for the purpose of seeing the Jews come to faith in Messiah. However, as one person well said, removing mans methods from the carcass will not give life to it. The problem with the Church is not merely a lot of mans methods (however you want to categorize them, Greek, pagan, etc.); but the absence of God's abiding presence. The same reason we struggle to reach the Jews is the same in reaching the Gentiles. It takes a God-consciousness to bring conviction of sin, etc. No amount of cutting out Christmas, Easter, adding Sabbath and such will bring life.

[i]"Having begun in the Spirit are ye now made perfect by the flesh?[/i]" This is the question, have you begun in the Spirit? Not do we do things in perfect harmony with 1st Centurt Judaism. Religion and methods cannot get us there.

One thing I will ask you, did you receive the Spirit of God by the works of the law or the hearing of faith? Religion cannot save folks whether it be Messianic or Greek Orthodox. the only question that matters is "have you received since you believed?" If folks are not 'receiving' adding 1st century methods in place of modern ones is useless exercise. More than anything- we need God to come and dwell among us. If God would just come- all these other things would seem so small.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/3 21:18Profile
Will
Member



Joined: 2003/10/1
Posts: 79
Auckland, New Zealand

 Re:

Calvin [i]was[/i] not the author of calvinism. In fact some of his writing would not support the theology of 'calvinistic' churches.

Calvinism really originated by followers of Calvin after his death.


_________________
Will Schmidt

 2005/9/3 21:39Profile









 Re:

First off, WOOPS!!!

I meant to delete the 'replacement theology' part, but eh. Can't take it back we both wrote about it ...


Quote:

RobertW wrote:

I am thoroughly familiar with the Messianic's position on replacement theology. I would encourage you to use caution with the term. Reason being is that many Christians do not have a real grasp of the issues and most I have ever spoken with do not believe that the Church 'replaced' Israel, but that they are seperate.



I'm familiar with it. And I have my own idea of it all.

Israel = Church/Body of Christ. (To SUM up, even though it gets more indepth)

::EDIT::

This was under 'modern revelense' for the guy Calvin killed.

"Due to this theological beliefs and eventual execution by burning for heresy, he is regarded by modern Unitarian Universalists to be the first Unitarian martyr. Many historians question how closely his ideas really fit what we now call Unitarian Universalism. A few scholars insist he had more in common with Sabellianism or Arianism or that he even had a theology unique to himself. Nevertheless Unitarian Universalist churches and societies in the United States (and possibly elsewhere) are named after him.

Servetus' was the first to believe in pulmonary circulation, but was not taken seriously in his lifetime. It was not until William Harvey's dissections that it was widely accepted by physicians."


Even with all this, was Calvin anti-semitic?

::EDIT, 2:: Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Is that one quote enough to declare someone against the Jews?? I don't believe so. Is there anything else??

Example: [b]If[/b] at age 2 in my walk with the Lord, i said 'i dont like this group of people' and i said it once, would you consider me for the rest of your life as a person to 'hate that group'. Some would, some wouldn't. But if I NEVER spoke or had any proof about saying it again, that is NOT enough evidence to say 'i really do Hate this group'. And during all this time, im doing wonderful works for God and seems to be learning along the way. I see no flaw in that, other than WE ARE MAN and we aren't perfect.

Amen.

 2005/9/3 22:44
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Servetus' was the first to believe in pulmonary circulation, but was not taken seriously in his lifetime. It was not until William Harvey's dissections that it was widely accepted by physicians."



Yes, this is an interesting portion of the controversy. As I understand it he taught that the 'breath' (spirit) entered the blood in the lungs and those who opposed him believe that the breath entered the blood in the heart. I recall reading that in one of my old medical manuals years ago. I reasoned that they must have believed that the 'life' of the flesh entered the blood in the heart because the heart was considered to be the center of man's being. What Servetus' opposers believed made sense I suppose, but sometimes you just can't connect the dots like that.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/6 8:37Profile
reforming
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 4


 Re: Remember the times...

the guy Calvin killed?

Calvin's opinion was sought. He may have had influence, but he did not have authority. Servetus was considered a heretic by the Roman Catholic Church and the mainstream of the theologians of his day, which were not considered separate from 'state'. In his writings, Calvin sanctioned the death penalty for Servetus, but he did not sanction it without offers of mercy. The idea of religious freedom was not even an issue at this point in history. It was not uncommon that heretics were burned...this is why the Protestants feared for their own lives, because Roman Catholicism still ruled the day in most nations.
Enforcing penalties against false teachers in New Testament times cannot be supported by Scripture (although it is supported in the Old Testament under the civil laws of Israel and Judah), however the overwhelming opinion of the sixteenth century was that the eternal torment of the soul and blasphemies against the holiness of God were greater sins than even murder, which many if not most in our day would say is a wrong that justly deserves the death penalty. I'm not saying we should burn heretics... it's not Biblical. I'm only saying that whatever judgment we make of the religious leaders of that day, we can't say their priorities were not in better order than our own. Any influential theologian that was teaching people (people who mostly could not read and were at the mercy of whatever they heard through preaching)heresies that would work against God's truth for their souls was considered dangerous and evil. Remember, the Bible teaches us not to fear those who can harm the body, but rather to fear Him who can cast both body and soul into hell.



 2005/11/2 2:58Profile





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