| Poster | Thread | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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Reading, UK
| | Re: | | I'm happy with this. I was unhappy because I perceived that Bruxy was equating 'homosexual orientation' with 'original sin'. I don't believe it is, although as I said earlier I am quite sure that personal 'soul characteristics' can make one man vulnerable to temptations that would not trouble another.
On another theme from the same message, I was hoping he might do some digging into the whole concept of marriage. He said that "marriage, by definition...is..." I don't dispute any of the things he said but there is no 'definition' of marriage biblically, although we often assume that there are.
I don't oppose Bruxy for reaching out to the homosexually orientated, nor for challenging Christians on their selective judgementalism. I just think we have to tell the thief that he will steal no more, and will not be tormented through life by a thieving orientation. To become a 'Christ follower' the hearer will have to turn from his homosexual practice and I would want to tell him that if a man be in Christ he becomes a new creation. Old things pass away and all things become new.
To the thief, I would say you're not even to think about the possibility; its over. I would want to say the same to the 'homosexually orientated'.
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Ron Bailey
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|  2005/8/30 15:43 | Profile |
| | Re: What Christians should understand about homosexuality and gay marriage | | I heard a married man testify he had been brought up in a home where homosexual practice was normal. After coming to Christ, the Lord spoke to him about celibacy, which he embraced. After 7 years, the Lord began speaking to him about marriage. 7 years sounds a long time. Is it? Or, is this a highly individual process?
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I don't oppose Bruxy for reaching out to the homosexually orientated, nor for challenging Christians on their selective judgementalism. I just think we have to tell the thief that he will steal no more, and will not be tormented through life by a thieving orientation. To become a 'Christ follower' the hearer will have to turn from his homosexual practice and I would want to tell him that if a man be in Christ he becomes a new creation. Old things pass away and all things become new.
To the thief, I would say you're not even to think about the possibility; its over. I would want to say the same to the 'homosexually orientated'.
philologos, I like what you've said here. :-)
How do you then pick words to discuss lingering homosexual desires and the ending of homosexual relationships?
Would you insist on the ending of the emotional/friendships between homosexuals?
Would you encourage the 'new creation' to think of himself as heterosexually aligned, now, even if he has no inkling of such [i]feelings[/i] in experience?
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| | 2005/8/30 16:58 | | roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: The difference between approval and acceptance | | Quote:
To the thief, I would say you're not even to think about the possibility; its over. I would want to say the same to the 'homosexually orientated'.
Would't we all like to say this about any sin? Then we would not need AA. We would never have to excercise mercy, patience, and compassion with each other. We would all have arrived. We would be polished saints in the churches.
An example: ANGER can cause untold devestation. We should not be filled with anger. However, scripture does not say: Never be angry. To preach this either consciously or unconsciously encourages repression, hypocrisy, shame, guilt etc and leads to countless emotional disorders. It is far better to admit it and work with that reality. Then we can move on.
I like the way Bruxy diffentiates between ACCEPTANCE and APPROVAL. They are not the same thing. He does not say that orientation means craving to sin or necessarily means sinful desire.
Surely you must respect those who remain celebate in order to please the Lord, those who refuse to act on their orientation, if it didn't go away. That is FAR MORE DIFFICULT than it would be for those completely healed.
Do you know the story of the musician, Tchaikovsky. He ended up taking his life because he could not live with the pain caused by his homosexuality. Of course, we could easily say, Well he should have trusted Christ", but sadly, everyone in his life was too busy condemning him and driving him away rather than SHOWING him the love of Christ.
So the responsibility is not only theirs, but ours too, and I think we have failed miserably to be the light of Christ. These people, whether or not they admit it, already know that it is wrong in God's eyes. If that's all we tell them over and over again, we don't get anywhere.
I do believe that to the extent we are aware of own brokenness - that we too are poor, naked, blind, and wretched - we will be able to help the sinner.
As I write this, I am wondering: Is a bit of tolerance with true love more effective than rigid condemnation without love? Maybe the latter is less likely to lead anyone to Christ.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2005/8/30 17:09 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
How do you then pick words to discuss lingering homosexual desires and the ending of homosexual relationships?
Would you insist on the ending of the emotional/friendships between homosexuals?
Would you encourage the 'new creation' to think of himself as heterosexually aligned, now, even if he has no inkling of such feelings in experience?
OK, it's time for me to come clean on this one. I don't believe that lingering homosexual desires can survive an authentic experience of regeneration.
"I" wouldn't insist upon anything but as the old Puritans used to say "there is little point in saying 'lead us not into temptation' and then taking the route through the orchard". Please note that I would distinguish between 'temptation' and 'lingering homosexual desires'.
No, I wouldn't encourage heterosexual desires in an ex-homosexual. I have known 'ministers' who have taken this route in counselling to the destruction of themselves and their families. To try to encourage 'natural desires' is an impertinance and only shows the arrogance of those who try. Let God do his own work, would be my counsel.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/8/30 17:18 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: The difference between approval and acceptance | | Quote:
An example: ANGER can cause untold devestation. We should not be filled with anger. However, scripture does not say: Never be angry. To preach this either consciously or unconsciously encourages repression, hypocrisy, shame, guilt etc and leads to countless emotional disorders. It is far better to admit it and work with that reality. Then we can move on.
Are we moving into 'Christian' psychology here? I preach that the sinner must leave his sin. He must acknowledge it before God and receive cleansing; that is the only 'reality' I would want to work with in this sense. I fear we are slipping into psychotherapy rather than faith to see Christ change lives.
When you say that Bruxy differeniates between ACCEPTANCE and APPROVAL, what is he accepting or approving? God neither accepts nor approves of 'homosexual orientation' nor practice. God accepts us because of what Christ has done, and our acceptance of each other is to be on the same basis. But Christ says 'Come as you are' with the clear understanding that you cannot remain 'as you are'.
I feel no animosity towards the homosexual. I do not reject him. I am not even curious as to sexual orientations. I would tell him that he must be prepared to put away immediately all known sin. Christ will never pat us on the head and say 'there, there'. It will always be 'neither do I condemn thee; go and sin no more'. I could not say this to a person because I do not have the power to enable his obedience, but Christ can because He does have such power.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/8/30 17:34 | Profile | roadsign
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Posts: 3777
| | Re: acceptance vs approval | | I guess I picked a bad example to explain that struggles with sin don't magically disappear as soon as one turns to Christ. (If only!!!)
As I understood:
Approval means: "I approve of your choices, (and so does God)'
Acceptance means: "I accept you, I accept the fact that you are homosexual (or whatever sin), but that doesn't mean that I approve (or God).
Conflicts arise because the difference is not recognized. All people, including homosexuals, need acceptance, and they mistakenly think that they can only receive it if they also have approval for their lifestyle. Those (ex some churches) who think that they must approve of the sinner's life style in order to love them are mistaken. That's what I got from the message. Does that make sense?
I can relate because I used to believe that in order for me to be accepted, I had to be approved. I didn't think I could be loved if people saw my faults. That locked me into a perfectionist bondage, and a hypocritical pattern of life. Essentially I lived a lie, though I was greatly approved by my church for being a very good Christian.
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But Christ says 'Come as you are' with the clear understanding that you cannot remain 'as you are'.
Exactly! That seems to be the focal point of the message.
From what I read of your words, Philologos, it seems that you agree with Bruxy in the critical aspects. It's good to try to clarify terms and usage of words before making a final judgment of someone's message. You took the time to wrestle through this and I admire you for this. I fear that far too many prefer to merely stick with their mindsets and not consider any other thoughts.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2005/8/30 22:01 | Profile | philologos
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| | Re: | | Quote:
RonB's [Quote]
But Christ says 'Come as you are' with the clear understanding that you cannot remain 'as you are'.
Exactly! That seems to be the focal point of the message.
Agreement? Great :-D
We are accepted with God through Christ's death and our enjoyment of that is the result of 'justification by faith'. In terms of thought, justification must be followed by sanctification. The danger is that in keeping our eyes on sanctification we may end up preaching 'justification by sanctification' which is a deadly doctrine.
Rom. 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom. 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom. 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. This word for 'receive' signifies to 'take towards yourself'; it's stretching it a bit but you might almost paraphrase it 'give him a hug'! We have to be ready to 'gather in' the sinners whatever their brand...
This is one of my favourite textsNow when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine. [u]Then[/u] washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. (Ezek. 16:8-9&ff, KJVS) You will see that the 'hug' comes before the 'washing'.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/8/31 7:51 | Profile | roadsign
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| | Re: Mercy Triumphs over judgment | | Thank you, Philologos for your words of mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. Shouldnt this mean that the majority of our dialogue about homosexuality should be expression of mercy rather than judgment? I sense that not many Christians are eager to learn how they can practically reflect Christs mercy the path to salvation.
I think of the parable of the unmerciful manager and wonder, to what extent am I like that?
Blessed are the merciful for they shall be shown mercy Matt. 5:8
To the extent that we face our own depravity, that like Paul, we are the greatest of sinners, we will see our own need for mercy. To the extent that we know (experience) Gods mercy, we will express a heart of mercy towards the homosexual community. We will then see our prejudices, the destructiveness of protest marches, the cruelty of ridiculing gay jokes, etc
PS: The horrors of the Katrina disaster expose far greater ethical issues that threaten our existence materialism, competition, greed, distribution of wealth, global warming, looting, exploitation, defending the cause of the poor
. etc Some of these hit close to home, I must admit.
Blessed are the merciful for they shall be shown mercy
Maybe its time for many of us to put down our Bibles and practice what we know, to love the world as God does. For God so loved the world
Jn. 3:16 May God help me, for I have failed to measure up in many ways.
Heres a word I just made up: Philohomosapiens
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Diane
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| | 2005/8/31 10:18 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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| | Re: | | Quote:
I feel no animosity towards the homosexual. I do not reject him. I am not even curious as to sexual orientations. I would tell him that he must be prepared to put away immediately all known sin. Christ will never pat us on the head and say 'there, there'. It will always be 'neither do I condemn thee; go and sin no more'. [u]I could not say this to a person because I do not have the power to enable his obedience, but Christ can because He does have such power[/u].
Would that be Luke 1:37? No rhema from God is without power? When God 'says' you 'can' and you 'must'?
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/8/31 13:36 | Profile | roadsign
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| | God's timing | | Quote:
I could not say this to a person because I do not have the power to enable his obedience,
Amen,amen, brother! It is never our authority to absolve anyone of guilt before God. Let the Holy Spirit do this. (Rom. 8:16) If all religious leaders would accept this then we would not have so many false conversions and pseudo-Christians - those who have never really experienced God's mercy. I suspect that these are the ones inclined to want homosexuals to give up their life style above anything else. We should desire that they, like any unbeliever come to know Christ first and foremost?
Who are we to know how long God takes to work within their hearts to change them, to erode their faulty beliefs, convict them, and draw them to himself? It's no different for anyone.
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Diane
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| | 2005/8/31 14:34 | Profile |
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