| Poster | Thread | TiltedHalo
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Joined: 2005/7/18
Posts: 57
Brooklyn, USA
| | God's Sovereignty | | Hm. Babes. What can contain God's Sovereignty? Who can measure His understanding? Who can trace the paths of the Almighty? Who can forsee His plans? Who can discern His purpose? Who has enough pride in their hearts to answer 'I'? Who can say the Lord shall use this for His glory, & not that? Whom I ask?
We cry out "They are just children!". Does not even Satan use "children" for his glory? Do we not see children killing children? Why do we have such a hard time seeing children reach out to God in such a fervant manner? Yet, we can just easily say, "Satan was at work when that 11 year old girl kill her 4 year old sister". Why can't we see the glory in seeing an 11 year old girl pouring her heart out to the Lord for her fellow brothers & sisters?
Again, the Lord Almighty may use what & whom He pleases to bring glory upon Himself.
If there is insincerity in these childrens hearts then I would speak differently of this recording, but as it stands, I see no real issue with the grounds of their hearts being poured out as such.
In Christ.
_________________
Arnaldo Santiago, Jnr.
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|  2005/8/27 13:21 | Profile |
| | Re: LISTEN TO THIS!!!! re God's Sovereignty | | Hello brother TiltedHalo,
You asked quite a few questions there -
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What can contain God's Sovereignty? Who can measure His understanding? Who can trace the paths of the Almighty? Who can forsee His plans? Who can discern His purpose? [b]Who has enough pride in their hearts to answer 'I'?[/b] Who can say the Lord shall use this for His glory, & not that? Whom I ask?
It may be 'pride' to answer 'I' if one is only guessing in the strength of a human mind, but God Himself gives answers.
"What can contain God's Sovereignty?"
2 Peter 1
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were [b]eyewitnesses of his majesty[/b]
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is [b]my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased[/b].
"Who can measure His understanding?"
Ephesians 3
17 That [u]Christ[/u] may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, [u]may be able to comprehend with [b]all[/b] saints[/u] what the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and [b]to know[/b] the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh [u]in us[/u], unto him glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
"Who can trace the paths of the Almighty?"
Mark 1:2
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send [b]my messenger[/b] before thy face, which [b]shall prepare thy way before thee[/b].
"Who can forsee His plans?"
Matthew 11
27 [u]All things are delivered unto me of my Father[/u]: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, [u]and to whomsoever the Son will reveal[/u].
29 Take my yoke upon you, and [b]learn of me[/b]; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
"Who can discern His purpose?"
1 Corinthians 2
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but [b]the spirit which is of God; that we might [u]know[/u][/b] the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But [b]he that is spiritual judgeth all things[/b], yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
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If there is insincerity in these childrens hearts then I would speak differently of this recording, but as it stands, [b]I see no real issue with the grounds of their hearts being poured out as such[/b].
I don't think you have any idea how hard a bunch of adults has worked to produce this sort of 'prayer' from youngsters. The polished theology gives it away completely. [i]If[/i] we were hearing conviction from the Holy Spirit, it would minister differently to the spirit; but, I accept you don't 'hear' what I and others do. |
| | 2005/8/27 15:04 | | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: God's Sovereignty | | Quote:
Why can't we see the glory in seeing an 11 year old girl pouring her heart out to the Lord for her fellow brothers & sisters?
Why do we assume that this is necessarily so?
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Again, the Lord Almighty may use what & whom He pleases to bring glory upon Himself.
Indeed He does, but does that mean we are to accept everything done in His name as valid?
Surely we can all speculate as to the setting and to what may or may not prompted all this. But there is the element of the children aping the parents here that is difficult not to miss, like them they may be sincere, but that does not always equate to being something more than emotionalism. They are still children and the parents are still responsible for their well being, that I believe is what is disturbing here.
Where did they learn to scream out such things? They are not even old enough to understand the beginnings of the depths of depravity of man and yet they are able to make such pleas without any such experience?
_________________
Mike Balog
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| | 2005/8/27 15:06 | Profile | Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732
| | Re: | | Quote:
Where did they learn to scream out such things? They are not even old enough to understand the beginnings of the depths of depravity of man and yet they are able to make such pleas without any such experience?
This statement captures my concerns better then all my posts in this thread.
We can encourage children to love the Lord with all their hearts but let's protect those hearts. Such an explicit understanding of the darkness and depravity of mankind in the cries of wee children is a haunting and unholy juxtaposition.
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Does not even Satan use "children" for his glory?
Yes, using children is a hallmark of the devil and cults. In contrast, Jesus loves the little children. I dislike semantics but in this case I thought the difference was worth pointing out.
MC
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Mike Compton
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| | 2005/8/27 22:10 | Profile | TiltedHalo
Member
Joined: 2005/7/18
Posts: 57
Brooklyn, USA
| | Re: crsschk | | You are right on a lot of points. Sincerity in no way proves validity. And just because things are done in His name, again shouldn't automatically lead us into adopting it. And this COULD very well be pure emotionalism. But what if it isn't? Is it occult because of their age? Can they not understand the wages of sin? Can they not understand "where you go" without Christ Jesus? If so, why not?
Pardon me for playing devils advocate, but experience also does not equate growth. These children may have very well been touched by the Spirit. I don't want to be simplistic here but I have seen with my very own eyes children to preach the word of God better than I've seen many adults, to according to the lot of you, "understand the depravity of man". I have seen a very young child weeping her eyes out because she accepted Jesus Christ into her heart that night.
So again, I go to the question, why can this not come from God?
In Love
_________________
Arnaldo Santiago, Jnr.
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| | 2005/9/4 12:42 | Profile | TiltedHalo
Member
Joined: 2005/7/18
Posts: 57
Brooklyn, USA
| | Re: Compton | | "In contrast, Jesus loves the little children"
Does Jesus not love big children, like you and I, as well? Would we be putting an age limit to what God can & cannot use?
If we would come across a donkey that can speak for the glory of God, would we say that God cannot work that way as well?
In Love
_________________
Arnaldo Santiago, Jnr.
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| | 2005/9/4 12:45 | Profile | TiltedHalo
Member
Joined: 2005/7/18
Posts: 57
Brooklyn, USA
| | Re: dorcas | | I wouldn't try to sit here and serve a rebuttle to everything you've stated but let me simply say this:
You cannot, nor I, nor anyone for that matter take scripture out of it's context to serve as a "point-maker". When,[if] we begin to even fool ourselves into thinking that we can get a grasp on God's ways, then that will be a very dangerous thing. Who can say that our ways are of the Lords? Who can say that we, with our finite minds, understand His ways? We can understand the things He has given us, but in NO WAY can we disect the mind of the Other.
Paul writes: (quoting from OT scripture)
Oh, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the reasonable knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgements, and his paths beyond tracing out!
Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?
Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
As Solomon writes:
As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.
In Love
_________________
Arnaldo Santiago, Jnr.
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| | 2005/9/4 12:57 | Profile |
| | Re: LISTEN TO THIS!!!! | | Brother TiltedHalo,
The question is not whether children can know God, receive from God, preach the truth or be used in other ways in His service. It is, in this discussion, entirely about whether the adults who trained those children, recorded those children and made the recording available on the internet, are acting on God's instructions (ie are being guided by the Holy Spirit) and thereby, demonstrating an intelligent objectivity about the way other adults (knowledgeable in child heath) will interpret their offering as a testimony for or against, 'Christianity'.
I spoke from personal testimony of having been delivered from what I hear on this recording. Others, extremely sensitive brethren, chimed in with their experience both as parents, and guardians of the souls of those whom God has entrusted to them.
I accept your testimony of what you've seen in real life encounters, such as -
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have seen a very young child weeping her eyes out because she accepted Jesus Christ into her heart that night.
but there is a problem the moment we use one example to extrapolate an entire policy or doctrine, such as you imply, here, as if by a thing having happened once, it is then to be an expected normal in the Church.
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'..Would we be putting an age limit to what God can & cannot use?
If we would come across a donkey that can speak for the glory of God, would we say that God cannot work that way as well?
It is one thing to be 'devil's advocate' when you are not going to damage anyone else by such action.
It is completely different to use children for spiritual experimentation. Some of them will never find God and some of them will never recover. And those who do find God may never be as whole as they could have been, had they been nurtured with true spiritual safety [b]in mind, from the start[/b].
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| | 2005/9/4 13:15 | |
| | Re: LISTEN TO THIS!!!! | | Brother TiltedHalo,
Your third post (above my last), went up while I was replying to the first two.
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You cannot, nor I, nor anyone for that matter take scripture out of it's context to serve as a "point-maker".
My brother, I would suggest the person who uses Old Testament scripture as a 'point-maker' 2000 years after the birth of the Church, has more explaining to do than the one quoting from the New Testament.
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When,[if] we begin to even [b]fool[/b] ourselves into thinking that we can get a grasp on God's ways, then that will be a very dangerous thing.
On the contrary, I would suggest the many New Testament exhortations to exercise the mind of Christ, deliver us from the 'fool'ishness of [i]thinking[/i] we cannot know God, His voice, His calling, His ways, His very specific leading from minute to minute, in certain situations. I cannot claim this for another, but, I am well within the bounds of New Covenant faith to claim it for myself.
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Who can say that our ways are of the Lords? Who can say that we, with our finite minds, understand His ways? [b]We can understand the things He has given us[/b], but in NO WAY can we disect the mind of the Other.
If you wish, please could you quote from any of my previous posts, which imply my disagreement with your claim: 'in NO WAY can we disect the mind of the Other'?
I think, you have inadvertently answered your own complaint, by the preceding 'We can understand the things He has given us'.
Have I claimed any more than to 'understand the things He has given us' - me in particular?
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| | 2005/9/4 13:34 | | baruch_48
Member
Joined: 2005/5/31
Posts: 78
| | Re: | | That might be the wisest and most beautifully expressed post I've ever read Compton ( I've been around the block, too )
Christ in you said all that
:)
from Compton:
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You know we've begun to equate public weeping with revival so much that perhaps prayer has become a performance art. Yet couldn't someone repent without shedding a single tear? Or are emotional displays like this the measure and proof of our repentance to each other? Such orphaned anguished pleas seem more fitting for the false priests on Mt. Carmel then for little children of God.
[b]Perhaps, if there is a thing as precious and fragile as holiness...it is innocence.[/b] Let's not crush our children with the sins of the whole world and then say "my, look at those tears! I couldn't be more pleased!"
Now in case some think I am against children crying out to God or repenting for their sins let me share this brief story. I have a Christian friend who recently made the mistake of traveling through Las Vegas with her 13 year old son on her way out west. She had believed the advertisements that Las Vegas had some family attractions. They only stayed a couple hours because the "family attractions" were populated with scantily clad women everywhere. Later that night, in the hotel room the young man broke down in tears to his mother. He felt his soul darkened by what he had experienced and expressed how his heart hurt over seeing sinful things that he had never seen before. These are precious tears of innocence lost that break a parents heart.
This inexperience with the world is an inestimable foundation for Godly living in our children...laying the knowledge of the sins of the whole world on them is disfunctional and selfish. A childs innocence is a precious and fleeting gift that will become a keepsake to them in later spiritual battles. Remembering it's sweet taste can help break their hearts over the bitterness of sin later in life.
Maybe only parents of young children, who gaurd over this precious keepsake everyday, can understand this. I just hope this type of thing is an isolated event and not a new trend in the church like barking and gold tooth fillings.
MC
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| | 2005/9/7 14:15 | Profile |
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