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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632

 Re: children comp

When I first listen to this compilation, it brought me to tears as well, how can it not? It still brings me to tears. To hear anyone crying like that, especially children, it will bring you to tears and your emotions cannot help but come into play. That, i think is the danger here.We cannot let emotions always sway us. We don't run our lives by our emotions, or at least we shouldn't. Feelings change with the wind, Truth does not. You cannot trust "feelings". I am wondering how far we must go with stirring up the emotions to bring conviction. I don't know the answer exactly, but I know this is too far.

My children are 6, 9, and 15. My two youngest are not "on fire" for the Lord as of yet, but my oldest has been on fire since she was about 12 or 13. She has developed a burden for the lukewarm church, for missions, etc... She has a passion for the Lord that is not like any other that i've seen at her age (sorry Arielle, that i am talking about you :) I could not have asked the Lord for a daughter who could be more committed to the Lord, with wonderful discernment and just a sad, sad heart for the compromise of the church-- yet she has a real problem with this compilation. She cannot bear to hear it. To her also, it sounds demonic in nature.

Yes, this compilation may bring people to tears and the words may convict, but at what cost? I think that many who listen to it, even those who are brought to tears, can sense something is just not right about the whole thing. Yes, children can weep and be sorry for sin, but where have they learned to scream and show no sense of self -control. God can just as easily hear our prayers and cries in our prayer closets and in our homes around the family table. Someone mentioned a 'cult', and from what those kids may have been exposed to, I have to question the motivation of the adults and the carefulness to guard innocent hearts. The main speaker (girl) talks about 7, 8 year olds as well. Children this age are still learning obedience to the Lord and to their parents; learning the fruits of the spirit, etc.. I would rather have a child who was committed to learning how to love the Lord and their neighbor, and the displaying the fruits of the Spirit,- than a child who was in anguish over the state of our country but lacked in fruit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control).

Our children are to be cherished and their hearts should be guarded while they are young. They are to be gently molded into Christ-likeness. I am very sad still for those children who lack peace of mind and joy. They will have plenty of time and opportunity to feel burdened and wearisome as they grow into adults. Let's let them be children.

In His love, Chanin


 2005/8/26 9:23Profile

Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania


I'm surprised by the response of most of the people who wrote. My thoughts about this recording were and are good and I'm surprised so many come to the opposite in your thinking. It does bother me that some people whose judgement I trust have this negative opinion.

It has been said that these children were praying as adults. I'm wondering how many of the adults who have responded to this in a negative way have ever prayed like this. If you have, do you still pray like this?

Most of us probably have come to the conclusion that we don't come to God through feelings, however, if you really love someone {God} feelings are a part of love. It is a very good idea that all of us should break an alabaster box at the feet of Jesus.

One who has been forgiven much,

Gary Eckenroth

 2005/8/26 11:02Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4534


Hi GaryE...

I listened to the recording, and I am torn on how to receive it as well. It's not that there is anything [i]wrong[/i] in what they said. In fact, I hope that the prayers were honest. My only concern (and ever so small concern) is the [i]way[/i] in which such prayers are said. It sounds like a very [u]private[/u] prayer being offered in a very [u]public[/u] way. A friend of mine once called them "preachy-prayers" -- in which you [i]want[/i] others to listen to what it is you are saying (or praying). I'm not saying that such prayers are always wrong. Sometimes you want someone to [i]agree[/i] with you concerning an issue. But it sometimes seems that, even with tears, such well-meaning prayers are offered with the listeners in mind first (even before God).

Having worked with a large children's ministry a few years ago, it is amazing what you can learn from and about children. There is a misguided perception from many Christians to accept what children say because they are so [i]innocent[/i]. Perhaps that was true a few decades ago, but this is a fairy tale in modern America. Children are growing up faster than ever (probably too fast). And along with this, they are facing many of the same "character issues" that adults face.

I have noticed that well-meaning children often want to be very pleasing to the important adults in their lives (like their parents, pastors, etc...). While helping with the children's ministry at an Assembly of God church that I attended, I noticed something quite astounding. A well-known "holy laughter" minister held a two-week "[i]crusade[/i]" at the church. Many people (including myself) felt very uncomfortable about the doctrine being taught and preached from the pulpit. During one of the Sunday morning services, this "evangelist" decided he wanted to go to the Children's Church to "start a revival" amongst the children.

This man came into this very large Children's Church (mostly filled with children that were bussed in from poor areas around town). The "holy laughter evangelist" began to tell the children that he was going to lay hands on them -- and that most of them were going to fall on the ground and some would begin to to laugh uncontrollably (as if they were drunk). Some might regard such "[i]preliminary explanation[/i]" as being an act of faith. However, it is often a mental trick offered by some ministers (even some well-meaning ministers) to subconsciously suggest what they want to happen.

Once this man begins praying for the children, I noticed something quite peculiar. The children coming on the buses just stood there. Many of these children are quite honestly sincere in their hunger for God -- and actually became [i]afraid[/i] when nothing happened. However, some of the children that were raised in Church (perhaps 25 of them) actually did what the "minister" suggested. They were "slain in the spirit" and some of them "laughed like they were drunk." However, I noticed that some of the kids laying on the ground with their eyes closed would often "peek" to see what was going on around them (or who was watching them), and then close their eyes and go back to their state of laughing.

Can children "fake" things? Sadly, the answer is yes. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are insincere in all that they do. It just shows that they often learn through imitation -- and that in some cases, they have become alot more like adults than we often give them credit.

Like stated earlier, I hope that these children were sincere. I am not going to try to read too much into it. But I am also not going to be moved by public prayers that should be coming from the hearts of all believers -- regardless of whether they are children or not.



 2005/8/26 11:58Profile

Joined: 2005/7/18
Posts: 57
Brooklyn, USA


Hm. This is something else. And I was torn when I began listening to it. But the cries of these children from the pits of their hearts are amazing. I've read everyone's reply thusfar & I can understand why it's become a tug of war.

But I would love to know who has the authority on this website, on this Earth, or in the Heavenly Realm to say what or whom God can use for His glory, for His purpose?

Does anyone? Who is to say that these "innocent" children cannot be used by the Almighty. If the Lord saw fit, He would use the very stones on the ground to pour their hearts out to the Lord. So who is to decide that "God wouldn't do this ... He would do that" with the exception of His own revelation in His word?

As a sidenote, I believe, children are not at all innocent. I believe the Almighty does not love & desire children for their supposed "innocence". You have to instruct a child to truth. You have to instill honesty in them. To say that little children do not have darkness in their hearts is to say that there is an "age" in where darkness enters the heart. Now, I do not want to be simplistic here, but we cannot claim that children ... are innocent.

So if not innocence, why does God love children so, & desire for us to be like them?

[i]Incompetence[/i] He loves children because they are simply incompetent. What can a child do on his own? Can he feed himself? Can he work? Can he provide for himself? Can he depend on himself & himself alone? Can he do ANYTHING for himself? Does not a child seek his parent for every single little thing? Does he not seek his parent for wisdom? For food? For clothes? For EVERYTHING?

The Lord wants us to just simply come as children. Fully dependant on Him & Him alone.
Abba, from you comes all things. There is not a single breath that enters the lungs You gave me, that does not come from you.

Full dependence.

But to get back to the topic at hand. Initially, it rattled me but I see how God can manifest Himself in any of His creations. I don't hate children by the way lol ... I actually want to work with them, but I do understand that the label "innocent" (I believe) shouldn't be stamped upon them.

In Christ

Arnaldo Santiago, Jnr.

 2005/8/26 21:46Profile

 Re: LISTEN TO THIS !!!! re - Hm.

As a sidenote, I believe, children are not at all innocent. [b]I believe the Almighty does not love & desire children for their supposed "innocence"[/b]. You have to instruct a child to truth. You have to instill honesty in them. To say that little children do not have darkness in their hearts is to say that there is an "age" in where darkness enters the heart. Now, I do not want to be simplistic here, but we cannot claim that children ... are innocent.

But, the adult world can protect children from learning about some things until the information is age-appropriate. Of course, in the lives of individual children, some things will come as a matter of unavoidable life-experience, such as death.

But, in general, the adult world [i]doesn't[/i] do all it could to prevent children from being [i]unnecessarily[/i] exposed to harmful influence. If it thinks at all, it 'thinks' kids are fair game to be corrupted.

Now, that is understandable [i]outside[/i] the church, but, the reason some of us are unhappy about this recording (and it being on the internet) is because [i]within[/i] the church, there appears to be no more discernment, than in the world - maybe, even less!

The Lord wants us to just simply come as children. Fully dependant on Him & Him alone.

It is precisely [i][b]because[/b] [/i]children are [i]so[/i] dependent that is behoves Christian adults to do a LOT BETTER than the world's adults.

God does not need children to be abused, to get His message across.

Yes, children are in sin as much as the next adult, but, how they express that is subject to their limited physical power, understanding, and, opportunity. An adult has none of these constraints and too often is not paying attention to the children nearby, who are absorbing the good with the bad, effortlessly.

I hear those of you who think the children in the clip are genuine. If they are not acting, then they are genuine, [u]but[/u], they are being manipulated. Of that I am 100% sure, but, no-one else need agree with me, if [i]not[/i] sure.

 2005/8/27 0:04

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732

 Re: Let's talk about innocence

As a sidenote, I believe, children are not at all innocent... To say that little children do not have darkness in their hearts is to say that there is an "age" in where darkness enters the heart.

Innocence can mean several things. I certainly do not use the term to mean "without sin". I meant that children are inexperienced with many adult themes and preoccupations. Latent darkness with a potential to sin is quite different then having endured the scars and disfigurement of having acted out these sins.

Helplessness or incompetence describes children I suppose, but this is not the same as innocence. Now most parents know their children aren't "perfect angels", so if we cannot agree on "innocence" then perhaps we can agree on "inexperience." If you are intending to work with children it would be a kind thing to learn that children (hopefully) are inexperienced with sin and it's devestation even while they have a sin nature.

Now I wouldn't want to overstate this point or proclaim some universal maxims on reaction is specifically to a recording that roused my instincts as a parent. I am not saying that children can't be aloud to cry. I realize there will indeed be times when my children, as they grow up, will experience anguish in their walks with God.

That does not mean that we should publish, celebrate and routinize this experience as some sort of desirable spiritual benchmark.

Hopefully the view I present makes sense. I am of course only speaking as one parent of a few children and not an authority of all children everywhere. Yet, when it comes to my limited authority as a parent I have an important repsonsibility to discuss issues that affect the spiritual community my children experience. My goodness, if I found out that the childrens pastor at church was teaching my children that God is waiting to be moved by extreme emotional pleas or that crying tears will endear them more to Jesus I would want someone's head on a stick! (Metaphorically speaking of course:-x )

Blessings all,


Mike Compton

 2005/8/27 6:48Profile

Joined: 2005/8/8
Posts: 258


If they are not acting, then they are genuine, but, they are being manipulated. Of that I am 100% sure, but, no-one else need agree with me, if not sure.

what are you basing this 100% assurance on?

 2005/8/27 7:34Profile

Joined: 2005/8/27
Posts: 1


hi there, my first reply onthis forum. I believe that we are sometimes mistaken about the term innocentand it's meaning. I believe that in the biblical sense it means " not having DONE wrong with the same intention " . WE all have Original sin and the fact of it is never hidden that we have inherited it either. But it much more important than just not knowing how to tie our shoelaces, for example, and it is not even a comarison of how we should live, except that we AS ADULTS choose to become children ( again ),,,,,,,

 2005/8/27 7:50Profile

 Re: LISTEN TO THIS!!!! on 100% assurance

what are you basing this 100% assurance on?

Personal experience. This is all I want to say.

But, for the sake of those who may wish a fuller answer - I have heard the same 'voice' coming out of my own mouth. As it happens, it was not in a church situation while I was a minor, but, since experiencing deliverance and developing some discernment, what arrests me on hearing the recording, is the spiritual content I can 'hear' in the voice. On top of that, I also hear the words, which Compton 'hears' with ears for other aspects of what is actually being said.

Later as an adult, I attended a 'church' (cultish) for 10 years (altho once planning to move area, went there less, but still not 'knowing' what was wrong - only that something big and serious was out of sync with God) where many times I went forward for prayer. Many times, I was at the mercy of the man who prayed for me and I know he damaged me spiritually on some of those occasions; but when one is confused because the preaching makes one confused, God cannot meet, because one is praying for the 'wrong' thing (although I have to say God did as much for me as He could under those circumstances).

It was not till I was at my new church for the first time and went forward [i][b]again[/b][/i] for prayer, that I began to get a handle on how I'd been kept chained up. The elder who prayed for me touched on something so basic, which I had never even known was there but now, knew it always had been, that I instantly worked out the previous 'pastor' had deliberately [u]not[/u] dealt with that (spiritual) issue, (to [i]keep[/i] me in bondage).

So now, you want to know how I was vulnerable to such a situation (10 years in a cultish setting) and the answer is, I arrived there in much need and fell for all the promises made about how blest I would be if I gave a minimum of 100% commitment. Within the system I found myself, what was required was to stop listening to God Himself, and start being pushed around by the leader - much bartering over the conditions under which God could or could not bless (one) until one had been robbed of all assurances of one's previous knowledge of God. After that, one was just like a drum, on which this man beat whatever tune he was in the mood for.

 2005/8/27 9:10

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

  ...with ALL your mind...

I managed less than 5 seconds listening to this. It cuts through my spirit like a knife. I share your anxieties for their wellbeing.

After reading through much of this and wondering what all the fuss was about...

Have we lost our ability to think, too discern? Not in speculating the context, setting, making assumptions and or philosophizing. My goodness, these are children, children! Enough has been said by a few here as to the exploitation, the parents need their heads examined.

Mike Balog

 2005/8/27 9:59Profile

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