If you have ever participated in what Friends call a "gathered Meeting" you know the Holy Spirit. This is not the same as participating in a silent Meeting for Worship. There is a clear difference. I have participated in Meetings where all of a sudden everyone gathered will get this look on their face of pure delight and wonderment. Like we are all floating on a cloud. No one or few speak because they do not want to break this experience. I have also been in a meeting where I felt moved to sing a song (very unusual) and at the last second I was told to halt and wait. Then a few minutes later the person next to me began singing the very same song that I felt moved by the Spirit to sing!! Don't tell me that I cling some demon or evil spirit. Twenty years of experience tells me otherwise.
Is that somehow supposed to impress us? You have some sort of mystic experience, and that is supposed to wooh us?
No one or few speak because they do not want to break this experience.
If it was truly the Spirit of God, you could not break it simply because somebody breaks wind.
I felt moved to sing a song (very unusual) and at the last second I was told to halt and wait. Then a few minutes later the person next to me began singing the very same song that I felt moved by the Spirit to sing!!
Oh yes... that must be the Spirit of God. Of course, I've seen some very demonic manifestations not too unlike that. I have no doubt that demons are responsible for a lot of what passes as "music" out there. Carols Santa, considered by some to be one of the greatest musicians of all time, admits that various "angels" have helped him create, and inspired his music.
I've seen false prophets such as Kim Clement "free style rap prophetically" (where one gets a basic 'beat' and then begins to say whatever the 'Spirit' tells him), when Clement was doing no such thing by the Spirit of God, but by something otherwordly.
Just because something put warm fuzzies down your spine doesn't mean a thing.
Don't tell me that I cling some demon or evil spirit. Twenty years of experience tells me otherwise.
You cling to a demon.
| 2003/12/8 17:20||Profile|
Thanks for putting all this in perspective. If someone has a disagreement with your particular point of view it MUST be caused by a demon.
You and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have a lot in common.
| 2003/12/8 17:33|
I believe you when you testified of the Holy Spirit working in your midst. He has worked with me is the same way. What a blessed experience to know that God is real.
Signs and wonders are God's way of giving us evidence that He exists. They are given to man to turn him towards Him. I believe Jesus died for all of us. And we come to Him and seek a knew life. I believe Scripture teaches us that we come as we are. Jesus came to save us, what a beautiful expression of God's love for us. We come to Him still burdened by the carnal ways that we walk. But we also learn from Him. He seek to take our burdens whatever they may be. Sin in whatever form strains our relationship with Him. He seeks to heal. He seeks to bring the soul near to the Creator.
With all of this I believe God in His love is saying to all of us come and let me heal you of what seperates us. With all that I have said I must also say this with again the word of God.
"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness." Matthew 7:22-23 We must walk with Jesus. That is faith. Those who continue to practice lawlessness will in effect be part of this group. To know Jesus is to walk where He walks.
Follow for He is the source of all fullfillment.
| 2003/12/8 18:14||Profile|
| Re: Barclay|
your quote:we cannot go the length of such Protestants as make their authority to depend upon any virtue or power that is in the writings themselves
I am not one of 'such protestants'. There is no magic in the words. I do not adhere to the trinity of Father, Son and Holy Scripture. However, if you think Barclay trimmed his convictions to avoid prison you have a peculiar view of the early Quakers.
If you have read (and really considered) Barclay and Fox's journals you will know the esteem in which these men held the scriptures. They received them as the confirming testimony of their inward witness. You will also know how Fox and others used the scriptures to confute the Ranters who held what is fundamentally your position that they could 'speak scriptures as well as Paul'.
The point that Barclay is making, and making well, is not directed to those of your persuasion who have rejected the testimony of the Spirit in the scriptures but to those who had yielded to what Tozer would have called their own version of 'textualism'; confusing the word with the reality. He was speaking to professing (professors) Christians who had no personal experience of the Spirit. the divines, so called at Westminster, who began to be afraid of and guard against the testimony of the Spirit, because they perceived a dispensation beyond that which they were under beginning to dawn..
I will not quote the whole of Barclay, you have your own copy, but I find it difficult to see how you can both hold your position and quote Barclay as an authority. e.g. you must have the section which says the scripture's authority and certainty depend upon the Spirit by which they were dictated; and the reason why they were received as truth is, because they proceeded from the Spirit What he was pleading for was genuine witness of the Spirit to man's spirit rather than book learning textualism. You will also find him bearing witness to Paul, whose witness you reject.
You cannot have it both ways. Either there is one Spirit who will bear consistent witness to Himself and His truth, in the scriptures, in Barclay and in all his true sons, or there is more than one spirit. In the latter case 'truth' will become a matter of personal taste losing all divine objectivity.
I'm not quite sure of your purpose in your last paragraph. In the church of which I am part in the UK our 'prayer meeting' is designated as a time for 'Waiting on God'. We do not presume that we will pray, although most often we do. We make ourselves available to Him and the leading of His Spirit. We have no human leader but seek God's face together at these times. None of this is guarantee of authenticity in itself but we know ourselves to be part of His church universal and we endorse that word of the Spirit to Isaiah long ago... Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Fox and Barclay did speak according to this word because they had light in them. You do not because you have not.
| 2003/12/8 18:39||Profile|
Ex-England colony of Australia
Jeff wrote: "Signs and wonders are God's way of giving us evidence that He exists. They are given to man to turn him towards Him."
Isn't this what the Signs and Wonders movements are all about and where does that "gospel" lead ? I started from the beginning of Matthew and got to the 8;th chapter. In the 4;th Jesus is tempted for a sign.
Mat 4:3 And the tempter came and said unto him, If thou art the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.
Further on we see that preaching the gospel to repentence comes first.
Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of disease and all manner of sickness among the people.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
The 8;th chapter tells us of healings due to their faith in Jesus and also in it Jesus tells one man,
Mat 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
And last the people of a city don't want to have anything to do with Jesus.
Mat 8:34 And behold, all the city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart from their borders.
Below are some examples of signs and wonders although these signs and wonders will not lead you closer to the Lord but away.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Joh 4:48 Jesus therefore said unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will in no wise believe.
2Th 2:9 even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Pharaoh and Egypt would be another example of signs and wonders. Then you have the wanderings of Israel for a long time with its signs and wonders after Egypt. If signs and wonders are a sign for us to turn to Him, then why did the Israelites continually turn away ?
As for signs and wonders proving that God exists the Psalms put it this way:
Psa 8:1 O Jehovah, our Lord, How excellent is thy name in all the earth, Who hast set thy glory upon the heavens!
Personally, Jesus death on the cross for my sins is the ultimate sign and wonder, despite me not being there.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Rom 5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness;
Rom 5:4 and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope:
Rom 5:5 and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
| 2003/12/9 2:17||Profile|
But this does not mean that I will not sin again; I recognize human frailty.
Jake, it would be better not to recognize 'human frailty' but to recognize God's sufficiency:
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
| 2003/12/9 5:33||Profile|
Fellow SermonIndex discussion group members:
Let me try to make my point succinctly. Just as Jesus revised the ten commandments into three essential commands, the Holy Spirit is available to us to clarify the meaning of Scriptures.
Philologos said "those of your persuasion who have rejected the testimony of the Spirit in the scriptures" This is not true. I do not reject this testimony.
I am of the "unprogrammed" branch of Friends. There are others, such as evangelical or conservative Friends who are more in line with your position on Scriptures and have "programmed" meetings, and little or no time in their services for "waiting upon the Lord." There are also "universalist" Friends who view the Scriptures as a historical document, and rely entirely on the "Light Within" for spiritual guidance. So, my position on Scriptures is pretty much middle of the road within the Religious Society of Friends.
It is the unprogrammed branch that Fox founded, and in this grounding I remain. It has been fertile ground, producing many leaders of positive social and religious reform. Mary Dyer, Lucretia Mott, John Woolman, and many others who led and brought about positive changes in our society were of the "unprogrammed" persuasion.
Quakers have a history of breaking the bonds of rigid thinking, and our free thinking and openness to continuing revelation has annoyed and troubled many people. They have taken exception to our views on the big issues, among which were: free exercise of religion, women as pastors, co-education for women, one person one vote, transparency in business transactions, the one-price-to-all-customers business system, William Penns proposal for a European Union, the anti-slavery underground railroad, honorable dealings with Native Americans, and the concept of human rights. These and other ideas were not popular or even legal when we first proposed them. Now they are integral to our political and social culture. (Albeit Native Americans have not received justice.)
Would Demon possessed people do this? A house divided cannot stand. By their fruits you shall know them.
| 2003/12/9 11:06|
I hear your concern in what I said. I have not had time or the exposure to what you call the Signs and Wonders movement. I have begun attending bible college through Calvary Chapel Bible College. So if one is seeking to label where I am coming from in terms of doctrine, this would be a place to start. But by no means is it an end in itself. My theology grows with the word of God which is living and sharper than a two edge sword. And as I share, the sword is cutting both ways.
As you said, it is the gospel preached that begins the relationship. This is true. Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom. This gospel that He and His disciples preached is not the same gospel we preach today. Now don't get upset, please. I will clarify. Jesus sent His disciples out to preach the good news of the kingdom. Yet, He had not even begun to teach His own disciples about His sacrifice on the cross. Today, as your testimony clearly witnessess, you understand that the cross has allowed us once again to come boldly to the throne of grace to help in our time of need. So what kind of good news did Jesus share. What was the nature of His good news?
Romans 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while WE WERE STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us." We all understand that Jesus ransomed His life for ours. And that He did this for all of us, who are "still sinners."
Romans 5:9, MUCH MORE THEN, having now been justified by His blood, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM.' What is Paul really saying here. Systematic theologians of the Calvinist persuasion would not hear what Paul is saying. So far Paul has established that we are justified by His blood. Now Paul uses these words, "Much more then," so what comes next is more important to us than the previous thought. "We shall be saved from the wrath THROUGH HIM." What Paul is teaching is that once we are justified, we now look to follow, to walk with Jesus. This walk will save us from the wrath of God.
Romans 5:10, "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, MUCH MORE, having been reconciled, WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE." Now Paul writes again to hammer home this thought. We were enemies and Jesus restored us, opened the door for us, enabled us to come near to God. But the good news of the kingdom is this. Again I write, BUT THE GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM IS THIS: We shall be saved by His Life.
Andrew Murray writes, "A preaching that insists upon salvation by faith chiefly as pardon and acceptance must produce feeble Christians. The fulness of faith is indispensable to the full Christian life."
I quote Murray because many look to men for assurance and support of what they believe. But hear what the gospel is! We are saved from the wrath of God by faithfully following our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We become what we place our faith in. The Life is much more than the death. But as I was trying to council Jake. The death must come first.
"Behold, God works all these things, twice, in fact, three times with a man, to bring back his soul from the Pit. That HE MAY BE ENLIGHTENED with the LIGHT OF LIFE." Job 33:29-30
What is the Light of Life? "That was the true Light which gives light to EVERY MAN COMING INTO THE WORLD." John 1:9.
Further more, Paul clearly teaches that "once saved always saved" is a false doctrine. Roman 8:13, "For if you live according to the flesh YOU WILL DIE; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, YOU WILL LIVE.' I was trying to point out to Jake what the word of God says. We are sinners when we are born again. Jesus through the Holy Spirit will teach us to follow Him. What Paul is teaching here is that we still have a choice do we follow Jesus or do we continue following the old man. It is our choice. You asked why did Israel fall again and again, They loved their sin more than their Savior.
| 2003/12/9 12:28||Profile|
Just as Jesus revised the ten commandments into three essential commands, the Holy Spirit is available to us to clarify the meaning of Scriptures.
Jesus did no such thing.
| 2003/12/9 12:33||Profile|
your quote:Philologos said "those of your persuasion who have rejected the testimony of the Spirit in the scriptures" This is not true. I do not reject this testimony.
But you only accept such scriptures as you feel support your witness. This was not the position of Fox or Barclay. The scriptures are a consolidated witness. This is not Kmart where we can browse the shelves and choose as we will. All scripture is God-breathed. This is the testimony of the Spirit to the scripture, in the scripture. This was received by Fox and Barclay. According to your posts you reject Paulianity and accept Christianity. This was not the position of Fox or Barclay. They would not accept your views on scripture.
Every thread is going to founder on this hidden hazard. You accept such scripture as you can weave into your design but reject those that you judge will not fit, and even these that you accept you trim until they fit. Instead of rejecting portions of scripture which do not support your theses you would do well to consider whether it is your design that is at fault rather than Paul's.
The reason that I have persisted in drawing you back to Barclay, as the apologist for Fox, is twofold. The first is to show that whatever you call your Quakerism it is not authentic Quakerism as held by Fox and Barclay; the second is that these giants of spiritual life should not be diluted in their continuing contribution to the Church of Christ.
Many of the sermon contributors to this website are in direct family line of the Quakers. The sermons of Tozer and Reidhead are on exactly the same ground, namely that belief in the scriptures is not an alternative to faith in Christ. Tozer calls this 'textualism', Fox and Barclay were making the same protest in their generation. But Tozer and Reidhead are also in direct line of descent in their position regarding the scriptures. As with Fox and Barclay, their position (and for that matter, mine) is that the testimony of scripture is the final court of examination in matters of life and doctrine. Not the sole, but the final. My earlier quotation from Barclay will substantiate this.
| 2003/12/9 12:58||Profile|