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Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Homosexuality in the Church Of England

I disagree with "homosexuals" i.e. people who willing choose to take part in homosexual acts, taking any leadership in the church, which includes being "ordained" in the COE.

My question is, how "good" or how "un-bad" must a person be to be in leadership in the church?

Homosexuals are mentioned alongside lots of other types of sinners in 1 Corinthians 6 and these people are said not to inherit the kingdom of God:

9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


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Mark Nash

 2003/10/30 5:33Profile
almondBranch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/6
Posts: 91
Tralee, Ireland

 Re: Homosexuality in the Church Of England

Well lets begin with the obvious scriptures in Timothy and Titus. I have compiled alist of the characteristics for both overseeing and serving grouping them into positive and negative:

[u]Positive[/u]
blameless (irreproachable)
husband of one wife
self-controlled
sensible
a friend of strangers (or, hospitable)
skillful at teaching
patient
conducting his own house well
having children in submission with all dignity
a good testimony from those without
grave
holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience
just
Holding fast the faithful word
holy
[u]negative[/u]
not addicted to wine
not violent
not greedy for dishonest gain
not a brawler
not covetous
not a new convert
not double-tongued
not headstrong

This has to be the place to begin, however I don't believe these qualities are listed in the same sense they would be for a job interview, "line up with your resumes for the position of Bishop"

they are general characteristics that all Gods people should have operating in them. Paul asked Timothy and Titus to recognise certain men with these qualities to be recognised as elders, I believe that these would be men who were showing alot of strenth in those areas and so could be entrusted to be recognised as leaders in the assembly.

Slightly off topic, but I do believe there is a lot at fault in the usual paradiagm of church leadership, the distinction betwen laity and clergy (call them what you will) is a false dichotomy, all God's people should be ministers (servants) some, who are mature do watch over the flock (particualarly the new converts) but if they are true leaders they will be quickly leading others into the maturity that they have.

the office of a bishop in 1 tim 3:1 should be translated as oversight ...if any man aspires to oversight. Gifts in the new testament are functions rather than "offices" or official positions.

Peace, Stuart.


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Stuart

 2003/10/30 7:22Profile
Chosen7Stone
Member



Joined: 2003/7/21
Posts: 268
FL, USA

 Re:

Before I begin, know that I realize that there are more qualities necessary in a church leader than the one I'm focusing on, but that I'm just trying to bring attention to something.
In the list compiled by Nasher, the first characteristic was to be "blameless". To be blameless means that you've done nothing wrong -- that you haven't sinned.
We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and it is only Christ's righteousness in us that makes us blameless.
So first and foremost -- and though it seems obvious, I don't seem to see it as much as we should -- the church leader must be a Christian!
How could a Christian live the life of a homosexual without being convicted of this blatant sin? Do they not read the Bible? Are they more in love with their sin than with God? Yes, they are.
In being a Christian, we surrender and sacrifice all...our lives, our sin, our personal wants, wishes, desires, hopes, and dreams. We sacrifice it all and replace them with a godly life, with Christ's righteousness, ad with God's wants, wishes, desires, hopes, and dreams for us.
A leader of the body of Christ must set the example for those he is leading...there is no compromise.


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Mary M.

 2003/10/30 10:15Profile
Jason
Member



Joined: 2003/3/15
Posts: 138


 Re:

In the biblical sense, "blameless" does not mean one has never sinned. Job, for example, is called "blameless."

Secondly, the word here is "anepilepton," which means "unsiezable" or "unreproachable." The idea is that it must be someone who is living in such a way that no one can step in and say "oh, look what I caught him doing -- he's not so holy after all." (This brings to mind the situations with Jimmy Swaggart and Roberts Liardon -- situations which brought shame to the Church.)

The word includes the necessity of Christianity by all means (that's an implicit requirement), but the force of the word has more to do with someone who lives in such a way that no one can step up with a legitimate accusation against them. It is relatable to 1 Peter 3:16-17, which says, "Keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong."

Again, the point is "let your actions be such that any accusation is slander and brings shame to your accusers." That is the force of the word here.

 2003/10/30 11:25Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
In the list compiled by Nasher, the first characteristic was to be "blameless".


Actually, that was almondbranch..

But, Amen! To the following:
Quote:
So first and foremost -- and though it seems obvious, I don't seem to see it as much as we should -- the church leader must be a Christian!



If we cannot get past this fundamental "Must" there is no point going any further, no sense in listening to any rhetoric, opinion or debate regarding "issues".

It [i][b]should[/b][/i] be obvious, but sadly it is conspicious by it's very absence.

And instead of a flat and decisive blank statement (From the church). We now have to be 'tolerant' and decide what kind of launguge it is going to be couched in.."How should we word this..."

Simple, call it what it is.
Sin.
Just like all the other's listed, gluttony, drunkeness, etc.


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Mike Balog

 2003/10/30 11:39Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi AlmondBranch
your quote: "Well lets begin with the obvious scriptures in Timothy and Titus. I have compiled alist of the characteristics for both overseeing and serving grouping them into positive and negative:"

Just thought I would say how I appreciate the word 'characteristics' used here and later in your post. There is a tendency to call these things 'qualifications' or 'criteria' but I think you are right, these things are 'characteristic' of an elder; they are the descriptions of his character not his attainments. These are not standards to be achieved but what the man is 'naturally' (by new birth).

With each category the question could be asked e.g. 'is brother X hospitable?'. If the answer isn't an immediate, instinctive 'yes' it is almost certainly NOT 'characteristic'.

It is interesting that a person could have all these characteristics and still be a 'novice'. What do you think that implies? I have my own thoughts but would like to hear others'.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/10/30 17:02Profile
almondBranch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/6
Posts: 91
Tralee, Ireland

 Re:

Quote:
It is interesting that a person could have all these characteristics and still be a 'novice'. What do you think that implies? I have my own thoughts but would like to hear others'.



Haven't thought too much about it except for the fact that a novice has not yet been tested. i don't mean tested by others in an interview or 12 week trial or whatever but tested by the trials that are promised us in this life.

A person can have all these characteristics but given a bit of percieved prominence they can quickly become proud and self motivated. I think one thing is that a novice has to learn that serving in the body is all about brining about an increase of the experience of Christ in the one(s) you are serving not in promoting your own "ministry" spend some time doing that and perhaps the title novice will begin to apply less and less to you.

1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.


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Stuart

 2003/10/30 17:33Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

'novice' is neophyte, literally 'a newly planted one'. What might that mean? Newlyplanted where?


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Ron Bailey

 2003/10/31 4:06Profile









 Re: Homosexuality in the Church Of England



Jesus said that if you look at a woman with lust in your heart you have already committed adultry. This puts all of us in the same standing with fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, sodomites, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners.

We are no better than any of them. And we are expected to treat them as we would like to be treated. You are throwing the first stone ? For what purpose? You are no more worthy than the homosexual you criticize. Do they not also experience the love of God?

I believe Jesus used the phrase "brood of vipers."

 2003/12/5 10:45
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jake's quote: I believe Jesus used the phrase "brood of vipers."

Hi Jake
It was John the Baptist [Matt 3:7,8]and he used it of people who would not give up behaviour which was offensive to God. He exhorted them to bring forth fruit meet for repentance or in other words 'quit sinning'.

Have you ever noticed Paul's description of the church in Corinth; Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

In particular, notice the tenses of the last statements. A free translation would read In the past some of you used to behave like this, but you have now been made clean....

The authentic attitude of Christ to all sin is as follows neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more; the first clause must never be separated from the second.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/5 12:13Profile





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