Hi Chris and Travis,

I completely agree, and have heard of instances that the one that was saved received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit simultaneously.

The Pentecostal Denomination that teaches that in order to be saved, you must be baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues has no scriptural foundation.

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Mike

Agreed Mike. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit can follow salvation or accompany salvation, but is NOT necessary for salvation.

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Travis

I agree with you Travis and Mike but when I look at the First evangelistic preaching from Peter on the day of Pentecost they asked him what must we do and he did say repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the holy spirit which is promise was given to you and to all those who are far off.

In Any evangelism the promise of the baptism of the holy spirit and the command to receive it is still part of the Salvation process and the gospel message somewhat but I'm a believer in the second blessing experience to some degree and it normally doesn't happen when you get saved.

Brethren

As you say baptism, (not water) does not save us, I wonder what the difference is between our interpretations of this verse:


"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21 KJV"

The Calvinists say it happens when we first come to Christ, so are in line with scripture logically, but I agree with others that it is a 'second' blessing. But these others say that it is the coming to Christ that saves us. Have you any proof it says that - I mean clear texts?

Also scripture says "Repent AND be baptized' which could signify two actions set apart.

Brenda: Obviously that could be a totally different discussion, but I will give you my opinion. The baptism into Christ is a very real baptism of which water baptism, the physical act, is a picture. I don't believe Paul is talking about the physical act of water baptism in Rom. 6. I believe he is talking about the very real baptism into Christ's death and resurrection of which water baptism is the physical picture that we have been commanded to follow Him in doing.

Very short answer. Like I said, probably another discussion all together. But it is my opinion.

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Travis

Travis I agree that neither Paul nor Peter are talking about water baptism which is a sign of the Spirit baptism.

So that leaves us with the question of, does Spirit baptism ie baptized into the death of Christ save us like Peter said or not?

It's interesting that no one brings up the Ezekiel 36 passage on where the promise of the HS is made in the new covenant. There, one would be very hard pressed to not believe that new birth, new heart, new spirit and indwelling Spirit to cause us to obey doesn't occur at the point where we are regenerated by the word that we heard, the Gospel.

When you think of 2nd baptism or outpourings or fillings, think of greater and greater manifestations.

I realize you guys all know this, but I wonder why no mention of new birth and only mention of baptism. Plus, the greatest work of the HS is the exaltation of Jesus. The greatest exaltation of Jesus happens when His people manifest Him in likeness and image, character, displays of power completely sourced in authority and nature, and declaration.

Most of the Scriptures dealing with the work of the Spirit and the journey of the saint address the character traits of those "born again". Why is that ? Many focus on 2 baptism. Seems to be a focus that cuts against the volume of NT Scripture. Be thrilled in New Birth, Transformation, and Glorification. That's where the NT spends all its time. We, for reasons I haven't understood completely, otherwise.

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Robert

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Travis

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Travis

//Sometimes confusion arises when we come from different denominational backgrounds. We might be using the same terminology, and the meanings of those words and concepts may overlap, but we wind up talking past one another without really understanding what each other is saying. Let me see if this explanation helps.

I am going to say this the way I, and probably most traditional pentacostals see it in scripture.

Salvation (being born again), a supernatural work of the Spirit of God. When we believe on the sacrifice of Christ to atone for our sins and allow us to be declared righteous in God's sight. We repent of our sins. We are baptized into Christ. We then will follow His command, out of obedience, to be water baptized. (The water baptism does not save us. It is something we do in obedience to Christ that is a physical walking out of what has happened to us inwardly. In salvation, we receive the Spirit of God. We might say there is not a fellowship with God through His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is now our source of spiritual life.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a seperate and subsequent baptism to salvation. We see this through various different accounts like the one in Acts 19, as well as what happened at Pentacost. This baptism has nothing to do with being made right with God or having eternal life. One is born again before this baptsim. This baptism is about the power of the Holy Spirit in a person. Through this baptism we are given power for ministry and power to live a Godly life to a degree that we did not have through salvation alone.

This, in a nutshell, is how pentacostals see the word of God in the New Testament. If you have not been in pentacostal circles, you might not see this distinction which, if I am undedrstanding your question correctly, is perhaps where your question comes from.

Mike, Gary, and Chris were all aluding to this in the discussion of when a person receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit. For me, I received this baptism at age 18, although I had been born again at age 8. Both experiences were unique and definite in my life. I was a completely changed little boy at age 8. I experienced another change in my life at age 18, after which I did notice a greater power in my life to live a godly life and a greater power for ministry to others. However, that was my experience. We have seen people who were baptized in the Holy Spirit at the same time as their conversion and again also at the same time as their water baptism.

As to tongues, many early pentacostals believed that speaking in tonges was THE evidence that a person had been baptized in the Holy Spirit. There is some Biblcial support for this. In three out of four instances where people were baptized in the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, they spoke in tongues. In the fourth it is evident that something happened that was noticeable. I personally don't believe tongues is THE sign. Although, when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, I did speak in tongues. I think we would say that a person baptized in the Holy Spirit does not have to pray in tongues, but it is available.

I will say this. There is a lunatic fringe of pentacostalism that has become more and more mainstream in the past 30 years. Their behavior and teachings have put a foul taste in the mouths of many where pentacostals are concerned. The most ridiculous fringe are those who C.Peter Wagner called the New Apostolic Reformation. Many of the leaders in this movement show signs, in my opinion, that they no longer hear from God at all and are following demonic, familiar spirits that are leading them around by the nose into all sorts of crazy, false teaching. I do not identify with this group. I believe it needs to be marked and avoided.

I say that to let you know that what I am talking about when I describe pentacostal is NOT what you see in the modern charismatic movement today.
I hope that helps with your question. Maybe it clarifies things in your mind a bit. I would encourage you to look at all of the places in the New Testament where the baptism of the Holy Spirit, tongues, and the other gifts of the Spirit are mentionted and simply ask yourself what is plainly being said by what you read. I do NOT believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salavation. One cannot make any sort of Biblical case for that. It's simply NOT in the
Bible. But it is available and I believe God's provision for New Testament believers.

But to disagree with me on all I have just said is not reason to forego felloowship together. Its not a salvation issue.//

Travis

I appreciate the time you have taken over your reply. So if I am understanding you correctly, you are a Finished Work Pentecostal?

So at the coming to Christ, you said 'baptized into Christ, but you did not mean the baptism of the Spirit? So you talk about two baptisms not including the dip.

//The Holy Spirit is now our source of spiritual life.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a seperate and subsequent baptism to salvation.//

I don't get that but never mind.

My view is in accordance with scripture, there is one baptism of the Spirit and it comes post conversion, it is to make us holy - Holy Spirit makes us holy, by that I mean we are no longer operating in the world of the flesh and are now sinless, but it is much more than this, and along with that comes all of the fruit and gifts.

It is being restored in one instant to how God intended us to be like an Adam but much better as he was merely innocent. I guess that puts me in Wesley's camp but not quite as he allowed unintentional sin. I don't.

However when one is in this position it is possible to fall out of this grace but the ES'ed will not bear that for long as they miss His presence.

Oh yes I know all about NAR! Sadly it is getting everywhere. I am very well used to fellowshipping with those of other denominations Travis and never fall out for that reason. I do refuse to discuss with those that do things like post some of an email by me during a private conversation which to me is a breach of trust. Or disrespect me for another reason after giving them one chance.

//I do NOT believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salavation. One cannot make any sort of Biblical case for that. It's simply NOT in the
Bible.//

1 Peter 2:21 "baptism now saves you" Comment?