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JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Christopher

I’ll do my best to respond to both you and Staff tho I’d ask that Staff if we could stay on task and not get entangled in Christopher’s OC response -

I have a very busy day today as yesterday so it may take time for me to be able to respond today, tho rest assured that the importance of this for me requires an earnest effort to resolve this matter 🙏🏻

Regarding your post-
As always your post is thoughtful, well conceived and written, likewise I appreciate your patience with me as I attempt to sort this out-

(For me) it’s not that I disagree with your points as they are biblically sound yet i patently reject your conclusion, primarily but not exclusively based on the fact that the OC requires a sacrifice for sins, which God Himself provided in Christ Jesus-
Again (for me) considering that it would be an affront to the blood of the Lamb of God to once again offer the blood of bulls and goats in light of a more precious blood, a pure and holy blood that literally, in and of itself, takes away once and for all the sins of the world, I cannot but be repulsed by the idea that any other blood could prove more sufficient than that of Jesus of Nazareth-
In fact, it is the deception that any other blood could suffice, that itself is the premise of the false messiah (anti-Christ) setting up the daily oblation again that seals the fate that f those whom reject the blood of Christ ( per Rev)
I cannot find nary a NC verse that supports such an idea, rather quite the opposite (per Hebrews).
Reason being that the first was through the priesthood of Levi and the second through a better ministry, namely one after the order of Melchizedek- these are not the same.
(For me) in my rendering of the purpose of the NC when contrasted with the OC, it is the very fact that the first was found lacking and for God to accept it while the blood of His dear Son is rejected, would be for God the Father to count the blood of His only begotten Son, worthless and publicly trample it under feet -
Again this idea is repulsive, and flys in the face of all God accomplished thru Christ Jesus on the cross of Calvary ✝️

Art Katz, in many of his sermons touches on and at times directly addresses this issue, parsing it out to the point of redundancy so that their is no confusion left except that which will resist and reject the mercy of God.
The writer of Hebrews states ( to the Jews who were still under the OC)
2;
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
(((((3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;))))
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

3;
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
(Ps. 95:7-11 )
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
The Peril of Unbelief
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

7;
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
(Ps. 110:4 )
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

I hope this serves to rectify the matter regarding the annulment of the OC-



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Fletcher

 2024/1/24 8:27Profile
deogloria
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Joined: 2020/2/12
Posts: 393


 Re:

Here is another end of the year message from a Christian in Bethlehem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l75yhhAAPt0

May the Lord have mercy on us !

Markus
Edit: removed a sentence

 2024/1/24 9:18Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi JFW,

"If I may ask, why would the devil choose to focus his attacks on unsaved people rather than Christians?"

Firstly the devil wants everybody to die not just Christians or Jews.He revels in death,he cant help himself.The people in the most bondage to the devil are non Christians afterall.We know for instance that the devil is behind abortion and abortion is mainly effecting non Christians.
The devil comes to kill and destroy everything if he can.
Secondly
The devil is trying to delay the inevitable and the inevitable includes Israel being in the land and Christ coming back to Jerusalem.So if the devil can scupper that then he scuppers the plan of God.
Thirdly
The devil is against Christ and his bride and also against Israel (because he knows Israel is still in his plans)
Fourthly
I think its impossible to look at the lies being told about Israel as we speak and say this is from a human origin rather from the devil.The devil is driving the politics.

Your getting hung up on Israel being unsaved rather than the importance of Israel as nation at the end of this age.Nobody is replacing the bride of Christ who are saved,we can chew gum and walk at the same time,
urs staff
P.s Or should I say the devil can chew gum and walk at the same time

 2024/1/24 18:03Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Staff

Thank you again for helping to parse this out 🙏🏻

Is there a NC scripture that you could share that would support this idea?

Thank you


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Fletcher

 2024/1/25 7:31Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

//The devil is trying to delay the inevitable//

Isn’t that kind of.. dumb?

The devil simply wants to take as many souls as he can muster before the day of judgment. It does not take a genius to see he is succeeding.


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Todd

 2024/1/25 7:53Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

Thank you🙏🏻
That definitely helps to better understanding and I appreciate your feedback:)

/If I may ask, why would the devil choose to focus his attacks on unsaved people rather than Christians?
This, for me, gets us closer to the point I find baffling about these claims… perhaps I’m missing something but when I read the new covenant there’s not really a comparable argument that I’ve found, One that suggests the devil will turn from being against Christ and His bride, to an unsaved Israel …?
If the devil were to do this, what would be his objective?
I mean they already have and still do reject and deny Christ as the/their messiah and are looking for a primarily political one 🤷🏽‍♂️/

/One that suggests the devil will turn from being against Christ and His bride, to an unsaved Israel …?
If the devil were to do this, what would be his objective?
I mean they already have and still do reject and deny Christ as the/their messiah and are looking for a primarily political one 🤷🏽‍♂️/

Do you believe present Israel will always remain this way?

From the view that you are investigating, what is equally baffling is that those who see Israel's present unbelief ONLY at the same time ignore the vast corpus of prophetic scripture that forecast Israel's eventual spiritual and georaphical restoration under the New Covenant. It was forecast that after many days Israel would return to the land largely in a state of unbelief before the events transpire at the end of this present evil age. So the question to many profundly stumbled at Israel's reappearance and resulting turmoil in the Land should be, believest thou the prophets? Satan knows that when Israel is located securely in the land with Christ as their head, with no one ever to abuse or molest them again, then his sway over the minds of men and this age is over. So he fights against all and Israel in particular. Israel has always acted several steps up the moral ladder compared to what their enemies practice, but there will come a day when they renounce guns and might as their guarantee of peace. They fight now to literally survive and their enemies will one day have to account for this. As so many have, the Jewish population of tHe world has not forgotten the events of World War II. And people ask why they fight so hard? So what do we do now, we are in a never ending predicament. When will the unceasing cycle of violence in the Middle East cease? I choose to believe the prophets and Jesus, not just concentrate on Israel's present unbelief. And it's not wise in my opinion to change the original meaning of the prophets's words so as to make them virutally unrecognizable in many aspects in regards to Israel, thus avoiding the controversy of modern day Israel as having any real spiritual signifigtane in the unfolding of God's pre-determined plan for them and the earth. It has nothing to do whatsoever with excluding the Gentiles or changing and twisting the New Covenant in favor of one people. That goes in one ear and out the other in the perception of many critics and opponents of Isaral. I didn't say it but others did when they say God has designed the issue of Israel, and Jerusalem, to test, sift and expose the hearts of men. Experience has show them to be correct I think. If one is stumbled at Israel's present unbelief, why pro-Israel proponents continue to say in spite of their sin and unbelief, God has vast plans ahead for Israel after their spiritual restoration the land, then what do the prophets, and Jesus, say? In spite of what we see in modern Israel's still continuing rejection of Christ and political motivation and leaning of their present government, can we believe the prophets even though we stilll do not see these things? That is the divinely designed test, whom do you believe? Do you believe what you see or what has been predicted and forecast and that you still can't see yet? If one only sees Israel's present unbelief then their heart has been revealed as dwelling in unbelief to much of what the prophets forecast. In vain do people get around this by changing the meaning of the words of the prophets. God is wise, He knew Israel returning to the land was not going to bring peace. But there is no unrighteouness in God, He doesn't make bad decisions. He can't be blamed. The issue comes down to what and whom do we believe in spite of what we see. This issue is not going away nor the ever growing intensity of the revealing of the hearts of men that accompanies it.

Peace.


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David Winter

 2024/1/25 10:22Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: The Error of Revisionist Biblical Hermeneutics and The New Covenantalism of the Prophets

THE NEW COVENANTALISM OF THE PROPHETS

The prophets not only sketched the essential features of the new covenant era, they also revealed important aspects of the manner in which it would come about. While they didn’t realize the twofold coming of the Priest-King to deliver Israel and the world, they do provide the roadmap of what’s ahead. This is critical to note because it was here that other versions of the Bible story begin imputing to the NT authors notions of “re-interpreting,” clever “new twists,” “re-defining,” and “new visions” to subsume the prophetic vision of Israel into the NT Church. Such invention is indeed needless if we attend to how the prophets themselves understood the manner the story should unfold. Four dimensions of the prophets’ new covenantalism are particularly important to set the stage for the subsequently for the Land and the People of Israel. Here is the first of the four.

People and Land

“In the view of the prophets there would be a literal, physical regathering of the Jews under a new movement of the Holy Spirit. The process ends in Israel’s spiritual as well as physical, restoration to their Land in a kingdom-state like other kingdoms and nations (Dan. 2:44; Isa. 49:6). In revisionist readings, Israel is replaced by a “New Israel” (Church), exile ends in Christ who is the “new Moses and himself “Israel,” and God gets the glory in the typological “restoration” of some other “Israel.” So also the Land promises are fulfilled by the Gospel outreach that is going on throughout the whole world.

(From “The People. The Land, And The Future Of Israel” – copyright 2014; Chapter 10 – “Israel As A Necessary Theme In Biblical Theology” – Dr. Mark R. Saucy; pg 175-176)


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David Winter

 2024/1/25 10:46Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

//From the view that you are investigating, what is equally baffling is that those who see Israel's present unbelief ONLY at the same time ignore the vast corpus of prophetic scripture that forecast Israel's eventual spiritual and georaphical restoration under the New Covenant.//

Does this mean you think it is a “done deal?”


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Todd

 2024/1/25 11:26Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

I don't hold to what I have come to associate with your view that any interpretation might be right, after all who really knows?

Mainly, I hold to the view of the trustworthiness of prophecy in regards to Israel. If all things prophesied regarding Israel have literally come true up to this point, why should we expect anything different in the future?


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David Winter

 2024/1/25 11:39Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
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 Re:

It would just seem that if it’s already a done deal then there would be implications for evangelism. But perhaps not. I’m unclear on that point.


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Todd

 2024/1/25 11:47Profile





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