/Genocide: There is no genocide going on just a country defending themselves.Their is genocide going on by Hamas however.

Occupation: There is no occupation of Gaza ,it was ruled by the Eygptians, before that the British,The Turks and was never independant until the Israeli government gave left it in 1993/2005 in the misguided hope that they would rule themselves.

Apartheid: There is no Apartheid in Israel, about 2 million arabs are full citizens in Israel and take up positions in the IDF, the political assembly and in the judicary.Their is Apartheid in Gaza and other Arab countries who dont allow any Jews to live.

Zionism: The most simple definition is Zionism is a movement to recreate a Jewish presence in Israel or that Israel a Jewish state has a right to be in the middle east. Most people believe that they do have a right to exist as a nation in the middle east. Zionism is a good thing./

Absolutely correct in my opinion staff. The MSM won't touch it.

Truth be told staff, I believe it even goes beyond Israel has a right to exist. It's a matter of what has God determined regarding Israel and the land. The heathen may rage and the kings of the earth imagine a vain thing but the word of God has already given us the answer as to the outcome.

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David Winter

/Again it is not my intention to frustrate you so much as to arrive at a better understanding of how a brother in Christ makes sense of all this as a Christian./

It didn't come across that way to me. It was rather that the grieving heart of the person who shared regarding the trauma and grief in Israel today was something you seemed to miss altogether. Instead, you asked me if there was anything a Jewish person could do that would offend me and could I perhaps give you an example. I appreciate what you have said regarding me and my posts on this forum etc. But like I asked you, how can a message of such searing grief and trauma and emotion cause such comments and questions to go off in you? You say you are trying to understand things better but I wouldn't go about it the way you did. To me, it came across like someone going into a funeral service and confronting the grieving family members with issues unrelated to what they are going through at the moment. To me, your response was cold hearted and more than a little callous in the face of tremendous suffering. There is no other way to say it. Whatever it was that went off in you that seemed to miss and ignore entirely what the person in Israel shared is not healthy in my opinion.

I only included the checklist at the last moment. Maybe it took away in your mind what the person shared in their message. I don't know. But in regards to the checklist, you ended up stating.

/Again ftr, before the antisemitic accusations start flying, I love Israel and Jewish people but (for me) it would be a form of antisemitism to lump all Jewish persons in a monolithic group as tho they are all in agreement-/

There is a suggestion in there that my inclusion of the checklist was antisemitic in itself.

So my original intent was to share a message from a person in the midst of very trying events in Israel. Maybe people would be more inclined to pray for her and the entire sotuation I hoped. But then I am asked,

- Is there anything a Jewish person might do that would offend me?

- If so, could I perhaps give an example.

- I'm also hit with the suggestion that my including the checklist might have been a type of antisemitism.

All this because of a grief filled message from someone in Israel? I've been told and studied the fact that the issue of Israel is divinely desgined to sift and test and expose the hearts of men. Perhaps this is a prime example. I don't want to get too preachy on that. But I don't understand what caused you to miss what the person shared. It isn't healthy in my opinion. I can't say it any other way.

Meanwhile, if we try we can work through anything maybe. If I'm over reacting or have said things wrong there is still hope for me I presume. But still.

Peace.

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David Winter

Hi JFW,
Is this the question?
"is there anything that a Jewish person or group could do that would merit criticism in your view?"

I personally have no criticism of Jewish persons or groups that merit criticism but others do I think,for instance many people criticize Bibi Nethanyahu and others criticize part of the unity government which Israel have at the moment.
Their is no problem having normal criticism of Israel or Jewish groups once its not a different standard of criticism from non Jewish groups.Its also very important who is doing the critique,for istance if it comes from left wing groups in Europe or the US or other western nations then automatically you know the critique is from a place that just wants the extermination of Israel.

So I would be interested in why you asked the question?your motivation if their is any?
urs staff

Again, thank you for your response…

I’ve noticed that there are and have been many issues facing Christians around the world that didn’t/doesn’t seem to get the same attention or concern for that matter as does the troubles in Israel. This is curious to me seeing how scripturally we are to be exclusively aligned with Christ & other Christians praying accordingly -

Likewise it’s been noticed how we can be somewhat tolerant of other peoples theology that may differ from ours but there appears (at least) to be a patented lack of understanding that leads to a deep seated offense when it comes to Israel and this is a curious matter of inconsistency (for me) wether here on SI or with the bulk of my research with friends, family, and clients.


(footnote for clarity)
As a barber by trade, I have noticed an extremely wide range of responses regarding Israel from those whom I serve, yet not so much regarding the plight of Christian persecution. This is odd to me 🧐.
Even amongst my personal Jewish Israeli friends (one of whom comes this week) there exists a gulf between how they view the situation. For example, the sister of one of my best friends is more liberal in contrast to her brother as she is not a fan of Bibi or his determined stance, whereas my friend is very much in support of him, his administration. Having the opportunity to observe how they handle that is very interesting to me in hopes of better understanding their respective positions.
Also regarding your OP, … no one else had responded and some time had passed so I felt it was ok to inquire of you without it being a lack of decorum-
No need to respond as I won’t press you any further on the matter and again hope you can understand my intention is exclusively in pursuit of the truth 🙏🏻

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Fletcher

Thank you for your response. Of one thing you are right, mention Israel in almost any context and you may find you have opened a boiling cauldron of emotions and contrasting views. The issue of Israel does what no other issue does. I agree that is divinely designed to test, sift, and expose the hearts of men.

/This is curious to me seeing how scripturally we are to be exclusively aligned with Christ & other Christians praying accordingly -/

It's my opinion that if Christ is going to return to Jerusalem at His second coming and there are many prophecies regarding the eventual spiritual and physical restoration of Israel under Christ, then how can being concerned with events and issues stemming from Israel not be concerned with Christ?

But here I go. I willingly refrain from here.

Gee, I got a haircut the other day and she did a fine job but left it a little long. Is it wrong to ask a barber to go over it again and make it a little shorter. I usually end up too timid to do so. I'm serious or I maybe need to come to Dothan for a haircut. Are you available?

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David Winter

You and David both posted while I was still writing and had not seen either of them but it appears my footnote would serve to clarify the matter regarding your question ;)

It is very odd to me that some members of the body of Christ seem to have a disproportionate allocation of value towards unsaved Israel than other people, in some cases even fellow Christians. This is odd to me in relation to how the new covenant reads, as I can’t find a comparable parallel amongst the early church. So I inquire when the opportunity presents itself in hopes of compiling enough raw data to arrive at a common point whereby this inconsistency can be resolved (for me).

Your participation in this thread serves the point well as you have demonstrated a focus over the years on end times/rapture oriented posts, so I would factor that in to see wether it’s your predisposition towards these topics or your personal love of Israel/Jewish persons or if this somehow leads back to your allegiance to Christ and His body….
I’ve found that some of my better educated clients share a similar position to you and David, tho theirs is a more a political/cultural focus than one of faith and as such bears all the hallmarks of a “practical” secular disposition. That’s not to say yours or David’s position bears the same, rather they share some core tenants and it’s a curious thing to me how this occurs,… so I inquire when I can 🤷🏽‍♂️
This inquiry has led to some very disturbing discoveries within the body of believers that have been inquired of… which I believe can pose serious problems going forward in relation to the greater ministry of the church to the unsaved world, tho specifically to Israel. This whole inquiry is the result my attempting to have a more refined approach to ministry, especially but not limited to Jewish persons. What I’ve observed is there seems to be a tendency to esteem one lost person over another based on their ethnicity and again this is grossly inconsistent with what the new covenant plainly states. So my inquiry is to arrive at a definitive conclusion regarding “how” this is happening in hopes of shoring up an effectual scriptural disposition where the spirit of the living God is not encumbered by my personal biases .

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Fletcher

Ha! You can’t begin to imagine how your experience embodies the crux of the matter for me ‼️
firstly yes it’d be my pleasure to serve you 🙏🏻
Secondly, some people take it very personally and get offended while others would be hurt to know you didn’t feel comfortable to ask… there is a plethora of persons who pursue this craft, as such the experiences are varied. Perhaps that’s why there is such a loyalty when a client finds someone with whom they can effectively communicate. It’s like fried chicken in the south,… everybody can do it but each has their own personal taste and can lead to quite nuanced criticisms-

Now to the crux of your experience-
I’ve noted that my Jewish clients, while exceedingly gracious, are also by far the most particular regarding the service they receive. In fact, I can’t recall a single service I’ve ever performed on a Jewish person where I wasn’t asked to redo a part if not all of it…. this is irrespective of how far behind I am or how many others are waiting for their appointments 😂
It’s a cultural thing and initially it left a dent in my ego, tho later it served quite the opposite as I’ve found it to be a great compliment 😊
It’s been my experience that when a Jewish person finds a thing they value, they extract as much of the quality they can get regardless of the inconvenience. This is in sharp contrast to many other cultures due (in my mind) to the perpetual existential threat they live under since WWII. It’s a remarkable and otherwise unmistakable to behold.

Personally, I’m not a profit motivated person as the Lord owns not only me, but the business …as such I work for Him and He has been very kind to me even and especially when I fall short of what was otherwise expected. This is mainly due to me being distracted or getting into my flesh on an issue and harping on it for days on end 😔 there is a ton of testosterone in my house with only my wife to counterbalance (bless her 🙏🏻) this at times finds me going on rants at a perceived injustice and in many ways not living up to the faith I claim. It is something the Lord has been very patient with me on but has disciplined me publicly at times to the point of public humiliation tho He has always been faithful to restore His preeminent presence in the workplace, even when the lack of maintenance (on my end) lasted for a week or more.
Having said this, there are times when there have been palpable spiritual battles in my chair with an unclean spirit was hosted by a client, occasionally (tho rarely) resulting in a service being cut short and the client dismissed prior to conclusion of said services. I try to give people allot of space, just as the Lord does me, what they do with it is up to them but like you and most everyone else, I have limits on how far I can allow a thing to go. Having said this, it’s rare for me to shy away from potentially offending someone especially when I’m keeping step with the Holy Spirit which itself is not as often as could be possible if my eye truly remained singly focused on the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world-

Well now, I’ve said too much and am running behind schedule for what will be a full day of work 😅

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Fletcher

Hi JFW,
Ok so let me reply as best I can in order so you can understand my position and others more clearly.

I am not drawn to the personal salvation of Jewish people more than any other race or country.Some people are drawn to certain people groups or countries or areas it has to be noted and this includes Israel.I am not.

My concern is for the Jewish people to have a homeland in the middle east and to live in peace as much as anyone can in this world .It is obvious that God has returned Jewish people to the land (although their was always a small presence) and it is also very obvious that the devil has worked tirelessly against their presence in the area.
Their is not as you suppose a tendency to esteem one lost soul over another and is not out of line with the new convenant.Israel gets mentioned more however because of its place in the bible and because of present news and because of the fullfilling of Prophecy and while this may appear that the souls of Israel are more important than other lost souls, its not the case.Israel as a nation though has a more important place than other countries.


The proof of the pudding is in the eating ,if Israel isnt important why is it being attacked by the devil through organisations and politicians and groups.
This can be clearly seen by who the devil uses to do the attacking ,leftist politicians and organisations who support the Arabs despite the Arabs hating everything they represent ie gay rights,women rights etc It doesnt seem logical for the left to support Arabs who bomb and kill indiscriminately except when you realize that they have a victim/aggressor narrative for every issue they want to advance such as gay rights or open borders.The devil is clearly behind this victim narrative not just when it comes to Israel but all issues and this is how he advances his kingdom.
So the key here as a Christian is to realize that some Christians are drawn to minister to certain groups or countries like Canada or Eskimos or Iran(come over here kinda of thing) and also Israel.Secondly Israel as a Jewish nation or entity is different than any other Nation.Thirdly it is clear that the devil is attacking the Jews like no other group and Christians offer protection against these lies not with arms,guns or bombs but by refuting the devils lies and exposing his schemes because we the Christians are the only people that know what we are talking about.We bring light where their is darkness not just by spreading the gospel but by telling the truth,this truth is that Israel is not perfect and may have the same problems other countries have corruption,greed or poor governance etc but their is no genocide,apartheid or occupation these are lies of the devil and they need to be called out,
If we do not call them out who will?
urs staff

Thank you🙏🏻
That definitely helps to better understanding and I appreciate your feedback:)

If I may ask, why would the devil choose to focus his attacks on unsaved people rather than Christians?
This, for me, gets us closer to the point I find baffling about these claims… perhaps I’m missing something but when I read the new covenant there’s not really a comparable argument that I’ve found, One that suggests the devil will turn from being against Christ and His bride, to an unsaved Israel …?
If the devil were to do this, what would be his objective?
I mean they already have and still do reject and deny Christ as the/their messiah and are looking for a primarily political one 🤷🏽‍♂️

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Fletcher

Hi Fletcher,

I hope that you don't mind if I converse with you on this too. I think that it's a very important discussion.

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Christopher