1. On the LGBT issue, the most important question for every Christian and every church to resolve is this:

- Does God provide freedom from LGBT desires for the struggler, in this life?

This is a YES/NO question, and your choice of answer will determine how you build the rest of your theology. We must prayerfully resolve this from God, who promises: "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine..." (John 7:17)

If you choose YES (as per John 8:36), then the next step is just a matter of seeking the right sanctification doctrine (i.e. the "right sanctification method") from God. And your life and your ministry will have power, which can make a practical difference by the grace of God.

If you choose NO, you would have to create new doctrines and new church practices to deal with the increasing LGBT crowd. Many churches have chosen this path, and built their theology on the fundamental assumption there is no freedom in this life for strugglers – e.g. the "Revoice" movement, the "LGBTQ+ Audit" for church practices, the "no healing" movement etc. But take a step back and look at the outcome – it looks nothing like the New Testament church at all. And the world knows that – it sees an organization which is bereft of power, and incapable of making a practical difference in people's lives.

2. As you're aware, my answer is a firm "YES, there is healing for the struggler" – I have nailed my colours to that mast. I did not grow up in a powerless Christian tradition, and I know that power from my own experiences.

And I'm not alone in that – in my circle of friends and acquaintances, I've known people who were freed from lust addictions (homosexual lusts, heterosexual lusts). I've seen Youtube testimonies of total freedom from LGBT desires, delivered in foreign languages. Even on this forum, there have been several testimonies from past participants attesting to 100% freedom from LGBT desires.

Only the truth of God can accomplish such transformation. There is one common thread among such testimonies: "what I couldn't do in my flesh, God did".

Perhaps you can look up such testimonies of transformation (from porn addiction, from LGBT desires, from drug addiction). They might be ordinary people with no formal ministry or theological credentials, but they are all taught by God Himself in the School of Christ.

Do you know this transformative power for yourself? Do you believe it exists?

3. Answers to some of the questions I had posed earlier:


(i) Biblically, the word "homosexual" ("gay") refers to people who engage in homosexual activity (as per 1 Cor 6:9-11).

Just as someone who struggles with stealing desires is not a "thief", and just as someone who struggles with transgender desires is not a "transgender" – someone who struggles with homosexual desires is not a "homosexual".

In general, I'm very wary of non-biblical labels – because they ultimately affect how people view themselves. But it's probably better to refer to those who struggle with LGBT desires as "strugglers".


(ii) Holiness is about having zero lustful desires outside the rightful union of one's marriage.

If you are celibate, and yet struggling with sexual lusts for other people in your mind – Matthew 5:27-30 makes it clear that you are a sinner, you are not living a life of "holy sexuality" (no matter how it is defined), and Christ had to die for those lusts.

The standards of God's law are incredibly high – we dishonour Him if we water down those standards to just being "celibate" or "sexually active within a marriage". You can do both those things and still be lusting for other people in your mind.

And because God's standards are incredibly high – this amplifies how incredibly good the gospel of Jesus Christ is, which provides (i) forgiveness of sins, and (ii) freedom from the power of sin. This forgiveness exist, and likewise this freedom exists – as attested to by past and present saints.


(iii) Whatever the final answers you arrive at on the LGBT topic, you must be able to explain :

(a) why some people get set free while others don't, despite facing similar struggles and having similar backgrounds;

(b) why some ministries have many testimonies of freedom, while other ministries have zero testimonies;

(c) what practical difference can Christianity offer to the struggler (or is a Christian struggler identical to a Mormon/Muslim/Buddhist/atheist struggler, many of whom are celibate)

4. Some comments on Christopher Yuan and the "gay celibate movement", whom you brought up:


– Christopher Yuan himself does not believe that freedom from LGBT desires is available to strugglers, and his theology is built on that assumption. So while he disagrees with adopting LGBT labels, his theology is similar to the "Revoice" movement on many points.

Yuan and "Revoice" are both part of the "gay celibate Christian" movement (though Yuan rightly rejects the usage of the "gay" label). Both commit the error of thinking the solution to LGBT lusts is "celibacy", when the biblical solution is to "be transformed by the renewing of one's mind" (Romans 12:2). (note: in Scripture, the issue of celibacy has nothing to do with homosexual lusts – c.f. 1 Cor 7)

That Yuan continues to regularly struggle with homosexual lusts (by his own admission) is because he does not understand sanctification doctrine, he does not know how to renew his mind, and thus continues to be in bondage to homosexual lusts.

In so far as he assumes that there is no freedom from LGBT desires available to strugglers, Yuan has departed from the Bible and teaching error. He needs to seek God for the truth, that He too may experience the same freedom from homosexual lusts enjoyed by other Christians. That requires humility (James 4:10).


– The "gay celibate Christian" movement has expanded over the past 15 years, and has endeavoured to shape the development of evangelical Christianity. Each Christian must discern if these new doctrines and new practices are aligned with the Scriptures.

The movement's influence has expanded because it has been heavily promoted by theologians and pastors who assumed there was no freedom for strugglers with LGBT desires. If you were to examine the origin of these wayward doctrines, many can be traced back to Mark Yarhouse (affiliated with Revoice), whose views were heavily promoted by Don Carson and Tim Keller from 2010 onwards in their unbelief.

I have no doubt that Mark Yarhouse is a wolf. Likewise with some of his co-workers, e.g. Wesley Hill (who nows believes he will still be gay after the resurrection).

Based on this assumption of "no freedom", we have even seen a proposed "LGBTQ+ Audit" of churches (promoted by Tim Keller) which do not even want Christian strugglers to seek God for healing of their LGBTQ+ desires (relevant link: https://banneroftruth.org/us/resources/articles/2019/lgbtq-audit/ ).

However, note that the demands of the "LGBTQ+ Audit" are merely the logical conclusions if you were to assume there is no healing for the struggler. So do you believe that the "LGBTQ+ Audit" is approved by God?


– Some Christian groups have grown very uncomfortable with the "gay celibate Christian" movement, because the theological ramifications have become more apparent, and it's clearer now that it looks nothing like the New Testament model of church.

Some of the reformed groups are split – e.g. a majority in Keller's own denomination, the Presbyterian Church of America, rejected his promotion of Revoice views in their polity.

And thus these Christian groups have sought to re-evaluate their theology. But that just goes back to the original questions: "Does God provide freedom from LGBT desires for the struggler, in this life? If so, how?"

5. Do you know what the difference is between the stories of "gay celibate Christians" and those by Christians who were freed from LGBT desires?


- The "gay celibate Christians" talk about their striving, their faithfulness to God, their attempts at obedience (in spite of being in bondage to LGBT lusts, and utterly unfaithful to Scripture by concocting false doctrines and misrepresenting God). It is ultimately about themselves, and not about God.

I'm not being harsh here, because: (i) this man-glorying attitude is encapsulated by the title of Mark Yarhouse's, "Costly Obedience: What We Can Learn from the Celibate Gay Christian Community"; (ii) when people listen to their stories, they applaud the guy for his efforts and his determination; they never praise God.


- Whereas the testimonies of Christians who were freed from LGBT desires ("ex-strugglers", so to speak) is consistently focused on Jesus Christ: "What I couldn't do in the flesh, God did for me. I just had to renew my mind with His truth, and gaze upon Christ – and I experienced transformation effortlessly by His grace".

The focus is always on Jesus and His grace. And the audience's praise is unto God, and not to the person.


– So between these two groups, which type of testimony do people want to hear? (I would be amazed if people prefer to listen to a story of no transformation over a testimony of God freeing a person from bondage)

And which group do you think has the true doctrine – the man-glorifying one, or the God-glorifying one? (I believe the answer is clear)

Hi Yuehan, no need trying to convince me, I agree with you in essence.

Just to be clear, C.Yuan clearly distances himself from Revoice, see hih X post:
https://twitter.com/christopheryuan/status/1585285119476002817?lang=en

"With each conference, Revoice is misleading more people into believing their same-sex attraction and gender confusion are a fixed part of their identity"

Also, he clearly states that a homosexual identity and same sex attractions are sinful.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/bible-professor-says-same-sex-attractions-are-sinful-too.html

C.Yuan has not (yet) transitioned into a heterosexual, but he does not rule it out. As for the time being, he sees himself as neither homo- nor heterosexual and therefore stays single, abstays from sex and does not get involved in romantic relationships. I do not think that desire for the opposite sex is neccessarily a sure sign for having overcome homosexuality.

Having said that, I hear you, he struggles with temptations from his homosexual past. I must admit, I do also at times struggle not with homo, but heterosexual sinful thoughts that have to do with my past. Some temptations are done away with, others need to be consitently resisted until the devil flees. Sexual temptation is better avoided than resisted.

For me that is sort of ok. I would give him the benefit of a doubt, he does not have to become decidedly heterosexual and may stay aloof of both categories, if that makes sense. I understand that Daniel, Jeremiah or Paul stayed single and never talked about their sexuality. It was just not an issue for them.

C.Yuan has come a long way. What I am missing is solid advice for ex-gays how to transition into a person who is a attracted to the opposite sex and become ready for marriage and family.

Narrowpath,

1. I was charitable towards Christopher Yuan and gave him the benefit of the doubt too. You might have noticed that in my posts, I didn't question or speculate about his status with God. The Lord knows those who are His (2 Tim 2:19).

And in a lot of cases, it's difficult to tell the difference between the wheat and the tares. But Christians aren't exempted from being wrong or deceived, and it's good to point out their errors - it's ultimately healthy for everyone (Ephesians 4:13).

(Personally, I'm more distrustful of Sam Allberry – who has attacked those who believe in freedom from bondage, and doesn't want people to seek God for transformation. He used to promote the idea that same-sex lust is not a sin too, though he seems to have retreated on that point. So is he working for his own glory, or for God's glory?)

I will say that Christopher Yuan fell into a trap similar to that mentioned in 1 Timothy 3:6, in that he published his book too early and was thrust into the "Christian celebrity"/"Christian expert" spotlight before he was sufficiently mature in his faith (perhaps that's how the religious industry works, but ultimately it damages him).

That maturity cannot be attained through a seminary program; it can only be wrought by God in the School of Christ, in which all children of God are enrolled. This process takes time – all of us need time.

2. You indicated that there's some similarities between the struggle with heterosexual lusts and the struggle with homosexual lusts. That's my view too – by that I mean, if a "sanctification method" can free those who struggle with heterosexual lusts, it can free those who struggle with homosexual lusts.

For me, I've been freed from bondage to lust for over a decade now! God opened up the Scriptures and gave me tremendous understanding concerning sanctification doctrine. Once I started renewing my mind with the identity God had given me (appropriating my identity by faith, confessing with my mouth what my heart believed), transformation came quickly – and effortlessly. The main battle was not in overcoming the lust itself, but in changing my beliefs to match God's.

My heart is full of thanksgiving towards God for that incredible experience, because I could never have figured things out myself. And that same experience is available to every child of God, because that's what Jesus says in John 8:36.

None of this is about "Christian perfectionism" by the way (a pejorative label applied by ignorant religious folks steep in unbelief). It's about being freed from bondage by looking unto Jesus Christ and believing what He says, rather than striving by our own efforts.

As Dustin Horstmann once wrote, "The fact is, much focus on sin can be veiled idolatry of self. We keep looking to ourself for something that can only come from Christ (forgiveness, righteous standing, Life to change) – something that comes dangerously close to, or is, self-worship."


I had earlier recommended Joseph Prince's "The Power of Right Believing" because it contains the same sanctification doctrine which I had learnt directly from God. The book contains a lot of real testimonies and practical advice. I stand by my comments that it is a safe book.

Joseph Prince's ministry is certainly effective in a way that many evangelical churches aren't. Indeed, many churches have not been able to heal a single porn addict, LGBT struggler, drug addict or even a clinically depressed person. It's not necessary to agree with him on every single detail (I certainly don't), and it's not necessary for him to be 100% correct – but if he knows something that you don't, then there's something to learn from him.

3. On the issue of homosexual/LGBT lusts, which is this thread's focus:

Beneath every struggler, there is a wounded soul. Many of those strugglers seem to share similar background issues – e.g. entertaining forbidden lusts, lacking confidence in their masculinity, dysfunctional relationships with their parents, sexually molested in their formative years, etc.

It's difficult to ascertain the root cause by introspectivity, but the Holy Spirit will reveal this to the believer in due time (some inner healing ministries may facilitate this process, but it's always the Lord who reveals).

Amongst the testimonies of transformation I know of, I have seen people renewing their minds in the following ways (under the personal guidance of the Holy Spirit):

(i) by believing their identity as the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ

(ii) by believing the biblical definition of masculinity, and appropriating their perfect masculinity (someone shared such a testimony on this forum in the past, about how God taught him to "Look to Me and take a stand, as a man" – incredible testimony; I also personally know someone who was healed in a similar way)

(iii) by seeing God as the perfect father to them, thus healing their image of fatherhood

The testimonies I've read of those who found freedom from transgender desires are similar. It is their trust in God and His Word that made the difference.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:36)

That is the incredible, and unshakeable, promise of the Lord Jesus to all believers. Indeed, the work of God in a believer's life with power.

Amen.