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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : David Bennet War of Loves - is it ok for Christians be gay and stay celibate?

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yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re: Christopher Yuan on Gay Christians

Let's have something practical and concrete on biblical sanctification doctrine –

If a person believes there is freedom from sinful desires (as per John 8:36), how can he experience that freedom for himself?

I believe the following are excellent resources, with a focus on real experience and practical application:


1. Dustin Horstmann's two-part testimony on freedom from lust:

Part 1: http://bit.ly/2fD8AmH

Part 2: http://bit.ly/2kgFOxg

Dustin used to be a missionary to Taiwan. He provides a very clear exposition of Romans, explaining how God taught him to move from the struggle of Romans 7 to the victory in Romans 8. He is clear that this freedom is available to every believer.


2. "The Power of Right Believing" (Joseph Prince)

Amazon link: https://amzn.com/dp/1455553166

This is a very practical book on how the believer can experience freedom from addictions, lusts, bondages, toxic thoughts and emotions, etc. It contains many, many testimonies of transformation testifying to the grace of God.

Theologically, it is broadly similar to the Keswick approach to sanctification – i.e. "sanctification by faith" (see this video for an overview of Keswick: https://youtu.be/B521XpqmJVE). However, the traditional Keswick approach has certain weaknesses and errors. Joseph Prince and Andrew Farley are excellent at rectifying these flaws, accounting for the effectiveness of their ministries.

I've seen testimonies of people attesting to finding freedom from homosexual desires through his ministry. I know that Dustin agrees with him on sanctification matters too.

This is a very safe book to recommend to Christians – I agree with every sentence that is written (which I might not necessarily say of the author's other books). So long as you're a good Berean, you'll be fine.


 2024/1/24 8:17Profile
brendaM
Member



Joined: 2024/1/19
Posts: 304
North Eastern UK

 Re:

"However, the traditional Keswick approach has certain weaknesses and errors. Joseph Prince and Andrew Farley are excellent at rectifying these flaws, accounting for the effectiveness of their ministries."

Hi. Rather than having to buy the book, could you give a sum of their teachings please and the flaws as you see them? Thanks.

 2024/1/24 8:58Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re: Christopher Yuan on Gay Christians

BrendaM,

Sure, I'll start a new thread on it. Time's a bit tight for me in recent days; let me do it sometime next week.

 2024/1/24 9:04Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re: Christopher Yuan on Gay Christians

Narrowpath,

Regarding Christopher Yuan - you missed the subtle but critical flaws concerning Christopher Yuan's theology.

Before I respond, here are some questions for you to consider:

1. What does "homosexual" ("gay") biblically mean? (1 Cor 6:9-11) Biblically, is that in reference to a disposition/orientation or a behaviour?

2. What is the Lord Jesus' definition of "holy sexuality"? (Matthew 5:27-30) If someone is sexually chaste, but burning with lustful desires, is that "holy sexuality"?

3. What are the rightful sexual desires of the "new creation"? (Ephesians 4:24)

4. There are many Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, even atheists and agnostics who struggle with LGBT desires, yet they remain sexually chaste. What practical difference can Christianity offer these people? Or is a Christian struggler identical to a Mormon/Muslim/Buddhist/atheist struggler?


 2024/1/24 9:21Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Would it be ok for someone to say "I'm a christian pedophile but I don't act on it?"

The answer is self evident.


_________________
Nigel Holland

 2024/1/24 10:05Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:



Quote:
However, the traditional Keswick approach has certain weaknesses and errors. Joseph Prince and Andrew Farley are excellent at rectifying these flaws, accounting for the effectiveness of their ministries.



Andrew Murray and T. Austin Sparks are my most favourite Christian authors.

Major Ian Thomas’ books are also very good.

I know that Andrew Murray spoke at Keswick conventions. That was how I knew about Keswick. But I have not read other Keswick authors.

Andrew Murray’s teachings on holiness are very good to me.

I read Joseph Prince’s book “The Power of Right Believing” a few years ago. I agree with many things he wrote. But his teachings are certainly not superior to Andrew Murray’s teachings.


_________________
Jade

 2024/1/24 10:28Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:

Hi Yuehan,

[1. What does "homosexual" ("gay") biblically mean? (1 Cor 6:9-11) Biblically, is that in reference to a disposition/orientation or a behavior?]

I would even go further; it is not only a matter of disposition but it has to do with identity.
There is a problem with bible translations involved.

The KJV reads
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
The ESV reads
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

The Greek TR uses the substantival form μαλακοὶ which means effeminate persons, homosexuals and ἀρσενοκοῖται practitioners of homosexuality.

There is a world of difference between the substantival state of being homosexual and the verbal form of practicing such a thing. The first one has to do with identity, the latter circumvents the identity issue and only rules out the practice.

The bible is clear, those who identifies as such will not enter heaven, regardless if the practice is stopped or not.

Further it says, in Verse 11 such WERE some of you, it is past tense, it has been done away with.
There may be still temptations but both the habit has been broken and the identity as a homosexual surrendered to Christ.

This is one of the reasons I do not trust modern bible translations, they take liberties not only in translation but almost always in softening and mellowing the meaning.

Yuan states, homosexuality is not an attribute that is created by God for good, such as male, female, ethnicity, and the like. It is not an identity that you can claim for yourself. It is not like Lady Gaga says: “Born that way” but it is a distorted false identity that is based on the desire to legitimize their sinful behavior rather than something that I am born with and cannot change.

Homosexuality is clearly defined as sinful in itself, and for a Christian homosexuality cannot be sanctified even if he stops practicing it.

Bennet believes homosexuality falls into the category of God created attributes, but the bible clearly refutes it. Bennet, as many homosexuals, claims that someone who rejects this identity rejects something that God created.

I find this argumentation very dangerous. Not only does he assert that God created homosexuality, but by leaning on Isa 56:5 thinks he is an eunuch for the Lord that has a better lot than others and celebrates his homosexuality though he rules out the practice as sinful.
How can you celebrate a propensity to restrained sinful behavior?

It is unfathomable for me that God would tell us to stop being a person who falls into the categories under 1 Cor 6:9 and not give the means to break free.

If an idolater, thief, drunkard or extortioner can stop being such an one, why not the homosexual?

[2. What is the Lord Jesus' definition of "holy sexuality"? (Matthew 5:27-30) If someone is sexually chaste, but burning with lustful desires, is that "holy sexuality"?]
Christopher Yuan wants to do away with the category hetero- and homosexuality. I can understand that through his past he may struggle to transition to a man attracted to females, but he says he does not rule it out and has seen examples of men who did so. He may be in a state of asexuality. Anyway, I wholly agree on his point that identity in Christ is far superior to sexuality, and that there is only singleness in chastity or marriage confined to a lifelong partner of the opposite sex.

In Genesis 2:24 it says
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

I see this as a point that opposite sex attraction is still sort of normative but we know from Paul and Jeremia that the bible also commends singleness in chastity as a virtue.

Christopher Yuan also explains the reference to Ro 1:24 – 32 to homosexuality:
Homosexuality is a form of God’s judgement, where he gives people over to vile affections because they do not acknowledge God as God against the witness of creation but worship the creature, and that creature is SELF, and that is in essence narcissism.

Now about Joseph Prince:
He preaches what some call “Hyper Grace”. In very crude terms, you are in charge of applying Gods grace to yourself, instead of asking God to forgive you.
This is not biblical, I find this teaching very dangerous, and I am right now dealing with people in my house group who have fallen for this heresy. It is hard to disentangle.

David Pawson tackles this issue at great length. Here is a synopsis https://youtu.be/fr0LvY33bU8


 2024/1/24 14:06Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:


Hi Yuehan,

I agree with many things that Joseph Prince said in his book, “The Power of Right Believing”, but I think they must be correctly applied.

When you start your new thread, I hope you can also address these:

Joseph Prince said:

Quote:
The most important thing is to first learn how God sees you…………Learn to see what God sees. He sees you in Christ Jesus, through the lens of the cross and through the precious blood that was shed for your redemption. Flush out all your wrong beliefs and see yourself as a precious gem, dearly beloved and close to God’s heart.



There is a prerequisite:
We must be IN Christ and Christ IN us before God sees us as He sees Christ. Andrew Murray strongly emphasized this. I don’t get that message being emphasized in Joseph Prince’s book.


Joseph Prince also wrote:

Quote:
Ask God for big things in your life and expect good. He is a good God.



He applied this to earthly riches and worldly success and gave the inspiring testimony of Olivia Lum, who followed his teaching, and rose from utter poverty to become the richest woman in Southeast Asia.

Hyflux, her success story, collapsed and was finally wound up in July 2021. That is the conclusion of her story.


Blessings


_________________
Jade

 2024/1/25 3:53Profile
beloved-vern
Member



Joined: 2020/9/15
Posts: 129


 Re: Dustin Horstmann'

Yuehan - John

Over the years you have posted some of Dustin Horstmann's stuff. As you know he is no longer a missionary any more and I am not sure if he is even involved in any ministry at this time. I think he would tell his testimony different now because it has been a number of years when he told that.

I think his emphases would be on the fact that It is CHRIST'S LIFE alone that saves us. Now His LIFE is a continuous life that is by second and by second WITHIN US AND SUPPLIES all that needed to totally satisfy God. It is not potential righteousness but HIS actual LIVING RIGHTEOUSNESS within us.

 2024/1/25 6:15Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re:

Hi narrowpath,

Dealing with this LGBT issue from a theological perspective is like defusing a time-bomb these days, because: (i) many layers of theological confusion have been introduced over the past 15 years; and (ii) Christians tend to discuss these issues using the language of the world, rather than with biblical language.

So I believe it's important to discuss this topic in a frank and straightforward manner, that we may rightly divide the Word and see things with clarity. While my answers will be direct and firm, do keep in mind that what I write is out of goodwill – out of care for God and His people, and that includes you.

My statements and assertions in the following posts are carefully considered, and carefully weighted. Let me know should you require further substantiation (evidence, Scripture backing) for any of those statements.

 2024/1/30 8:21Profile





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