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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2301
Hemel Hempstead

 The identity of the antichrist

2 thess 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The bible says in 2 thess 2
That the great apostasy of the church would reveal the antichrist

The bible states that he is sitting in the third temple

Daniel 11
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. note note

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. note note

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. note

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. note

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him

The bible says that he should neither regard women and he is a god of war
The interesting phrase is that he should not regard the god of his father's , also notice that he attacks Edom which is modern day Jordan which is Edom

I have always wondered as he is the god of war
And in the bible in rev 13

Rev 13
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. note

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. note

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

What we need to notice is that he is given power to overcome the saints and he is only given power to blaspheme
The global world order after the saints are destroyed

What sometimes frustrates me it is the supernatural aspects of the beast as he is able to call fire down from heaven
This in the bible was used in the temple as in the temple sacrifices system
This is why I struggle with an islamic antichrist as a Jewish person would not let them near the temple

Maimonides of the signs of the Messiah as they don't
Believe jesus

Maimonides - Laws Pertaining to The Messiah
Chapter 11
Halacha 1
In the future, the Messianic king will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel. Then, in his days, the observance of all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years

When we are commenting on the antichrist
He is wounded by the sword then lives

It is also says that the people of the earth make the image of the beast but the antichrist gives power to the image

The word image is the Greek word iKON it is interesting looking at the same word in other Greek literature

It is the Greek word for mark chirigma in greek

Homer's Iliad:
In Book 5 of the Iliad, there is a mention of a wound described as a "χάραγμα." The passage is in Ancient Greek, and here is an excerpt:

Iliad, Book 5, lines 321-322:
"Έκτορι δὲ λῦεν χαλκήρεον γόνυ χαλκῷ
Τυδείδης Ἀίας, ἔνθα πληγὴν χάρακα λύγρην."
This can be translated as something like:
"Ajax, the son of Telamon, struck Hector with his bronze knee in the place of the wound, a grievous mark."

Herodotus' Histories:
In Book 4 of Herodotus' Histories, there is a mention of marking a tree. Here's the passage:

Histories, Book 4, Chapter 89:
"ἐχαράχανε τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν."
Translated, it means something like:
He marked both the sky and the earth."

It simply could be a mark when looking at in other Greek literature like a branding

The other thing that interests is the fact that the antichrist comes out of ten kingdoms , so there can be no antichrist

Revelation 17:12

12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

There has been not yet ten kingdoms

There is a different discussion on whether the antichrist comes from Rome , Islam or is Jewish

There is a differing view among the early church fathers

By means of the events that will occur in the time of the Antichrist, it is shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be worshipped as God. . . . For he is endowed with all of the power of the devil. He will come—not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king in subjection to God—but as an unholy, unjust, and lawless one. . . . He will set aside idols to persuade men that he himself is God. . . . Daniel, foresaw the end of the last kingdom (of the ten last kings), among whom the kingdom of those men will be partitioned and upon whom the son of perdition will come. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/ W), 1.553. When he comes, he will reign over the earth for three years and six months. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.554.

Jeremiah does not merely point out the Antichrist’s sudden coming, but he even indicates the tribe from which he will come, when he says, “We will hear the voice of his swift horses from Dan” [Jer. 8:16]. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/ W), 1.559. Once this Antichrist has devastated everything in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem. And then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.560.

The deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. . . . Christ is a king, so the Antichrist is also a king. The Savior appeared as a lamb. So he, too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Savior came into the world in the circumcision, and the Antichrist will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all

the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Savior gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad. And he, in like manner, will bring together a people who are scattered abroad. . . . The Savior raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem. Hippolytus (c. 200, W), 5.206. He says, “Dan is a lion’s whelp” [Deut. 33:22]. And in naming the tribe of Dan, he clearly declared the tribe from which the Antichrist is destined to spring. Just as Christ comes from the tribe of Judah, so the Antichrist is to come from the tribe of Dan. Hippolytus (c. 200, W), 5.207.

In the early church fathers there is different views
I have barely scratched the service

The issues that I struggle with as the antichrist is supposed to come out of the apostasy of the church and what does that mean and during the time of Martin Luther the church was in apostasy, the church is apostasy now

The church would know definitely when the antichrist sits in the temple or the holy of holies
Some people say this is the church but the Greek word naos is literally used for the holy of the holies in the Greek Septuagint

The other issue that I struggle with is in Daniel mentions that he is a god of war and only when he conquers the saints will there be globalism
This is why we have to double check whatever I say against the bible

People think that it is going to be easy to spot the antichrist or anti Messiah
Before jesus came there was many messiahs that they almost got sick of them

I also got sick of people saying this is shadows of the signs as that's called counterfeits

The scholars at the time of jesus first coming the scholars at the dead sea Scrolls and the Pharisees and Sadducees missed jesus first coming

Why do we think we are any better

Do you think God is going to follow people's earthly timelines of eschatology

Most people didn't know that jesus was born in Bethlehem during the first century

Without supernatural help we won't know who the antichrist is and he will be so like Jesus

The whole point of the antichrist is to accept the fake Messiah than the real one

Dominic Shiells

 2023/11/18 4:11Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2696

 Re: The identity of the antichrist

If I could offer a thought.

Anti-Christ. The purpose of the anti-Christ will be to deceive and replace Christ, and eventually to destroy the Jewish race. His spirit is already at work in recent events we have witnessed and are witnessing.

/Without supernatural help we won't know who the antichrist is and he will be so like Jesus/

I believe we will know his identity for sure, when he, this man, sits in the temple (probably recently built anew) and declares himself to be god and the object of all worship. II Thess 2:3-5.

II Thess 2:4 - compare with Daniel 11:36-37.

When this desecrating abomination occurs (Matthew 24:15), it will trigger the great and final tribulation (Matthew 24:21). It was Jesus Himself who instructed us to take heed to the writings of Daniel in this regard (Matt 24:15). We will not be in darkness when he declares himself to be god. Our discernment will be correct because it will come from what is written in scripture regarding this man destined to come.

Meanwhile, I guess you are prepared to be met with skepticism and even a bit of ridicule for even being interested in these things and trying to sort them out. It will come.


David Winter

 2023/11/18 6:35Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6554


//When this desecrating abomination occurs//

How can a temple of a false religion be desecrated?

Do you think God will honor a rebuilt temple and a renewal of a sacrificial system? Hebrews 8 & 9.


 2023/11/18 8:24Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2696



Do your homework. Same old knee jerk misconceptions and misrepresentations. Explained before.

David Winter

 2023/11/18 8:28Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6554



You asked how apostasy could reveal the Antichrist.

Granted, I am not on the same eschatological wavelength as most of you, but I don’t think the verses say the apostasy itself will reveal the man of lawlessness, but that the apostasy must come before he is revealed. There is a subtle difference. If I was in your eschatological camp I would say the apostasy will make folks obviously more apt to follow Antichrist or be deceived by him.

It’s all a moot point for me because I am not in that camp.


 2023/11/18 8:32Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6554


//Explained before//

Obviously the explanation did not hold water.


 2023/11/18 8:34Profile

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1743
Scotland, UK


We know from scripture what city he comes from

From you, Nineveh, has one come forth who plots evil against the LORD and devises wicked plans. Nahum 1:11

Colin Murray

 2023/11/18 9:13Profile

Joined: 2023/6/24
Posts: 337



Your exhortation about being ridiculed for searching out eschatological matters is timely brother. Strange how in these times that is true, and it is those that profess faith in Christ who are the most vehement critics (speaking of great apostasy).

More to the topic:

The identity of the antichrist will be so blatantly obvious that only spiritual blindness will cause people to miss it (scriptures already quoted by Docs).

 2023/11/18 15:18Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6554


Why can’t y’all just be honest and say you have no idea what the Antichrist even is or who he/it will be? If ESchaible is correct you’ll know him when you see him. All this endless surmising and wondering is tiresome and a little bit sad.

The matter has been debated for centuries and no one is one lick closer to having it figured out.

I’ve seen several different ideas on this thread alone.

He’s been various popes, Constantine, Hitler, Reagan, Kissinger, Obama, Elon Musk, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

And it is exceedingly debatable that it is even a yet future actual person.


 2023/11/18 16:34Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2696



You haven't even represented correctly what ESchaible stated in regards to connecting it to what I shared. Just like you misrepresented me a few posts ago. These things get tiresome and sad also. Like I said, you need to do your homework in a more thorough manner so as to not caricaturize and misrepresent others you disagree with in this area. If your marked indifference and even disdain for eschatology continues to take precedence though, it's your choice.

i'm through. No more replies. Peace.

David Winter

 2023/11/18 17:22Profile

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