It is good that God does not require of us that our doctrine be perfect in order to know Him. I guarantee that there are areas, right now, where my doctrine is NOT right. I can say this because I am human and I do NOT know everything. In that regard, we must bear long with one another and have humble discussion about what we believe. I am an pentacostal and a continuationist (not a restorationist). I have cessationist brothers and sisters that see things differently than I do. We have the essentials of the gospel in common. We can discuss our differences, pray together, study together, and fellowship. We can do this because we preach the same gospel, but have differences in how we interpret some passages.

But this is something entirely different. These men preach an entirely different gospel. It is a mixture of New Thought philosophy and the Bible. It is critically important that we dig deep into what they say and what they teach. Paul spoke very harshly and directly when confronting many of the same things these men teach as truths. Believe me, it is NOT the same gospel.

It is true that many sincere believers, with very genuine salvation, are following the teachings of these men. Many people even repeat their teachings, being totally ignorant of their origins. Again, praise God for mercy and for the fact that I can mess up my doctrine and still know God through Jesus Christ.

But it is different with the people who very publicly teach these things. We are to told to not aspire to be teachers, for we will be held to a much higher standard. Starting with E.W. Kenyon, totally pagan philosophy has been blended in a mix with the Bible and has been propagated for 100 years into what we see now with these men. Bethel in Redding openly admits in the writings of their own leaders that they are seeking to blend the "truths" of the New Age movement by redeeming them "back into the church." Their doctrines are strange, unBiblical, and dangerous.

So I agree that we are to lovingly and humbly walk with our brothers when their doctrines don't agree with our own. Maybe we can learn from them and they can learn from us and we can all seek the truth together. But it is not so with these teachers as they lead people far from truth and are destroying the faith of many. Believe me, I have seen the destruction and it is not pretty.

Please study deeply their writings, listen to their "prophecies". Study the Word of God.

Travis

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Travis

Caleb,

Thank you for the exhortation brother, we can all use perspective from time to time. I am perhaps most guilty in this regard, my language has a tendency to not express my motive or disposition very well, as my writing style has a tendency to be overly proper and long winded (case in point). My speech is similar, I talk as I write, and my wife will be the first to tell you that although I choose my words carefully, I tend to come across mechanical and unfeeling in these types of discussions; and at the same time be overtaken internally with one disposition or another that doesn't match my words.

I could say it's calculated to avoid emotional responses, but that would be disingenuous.

Nevertheless, I also feel that this situation is a bit different than Paul's, and the preaching he was referencing was truth preached from a vindictive and spiteful motive that was somehow or other calculated to directly bring him further afflictions (possibly some connection to the super apostles in 2 Corinthians, in which case it would hold bearing on these types of teachers, definitely invites further inquiry).

Anyway, thank you Brother Caleb for the needed check.

“But this is something entirely different. These men preach an entirely different gospel. It is a mixture of New Thought philosophy and the Bible. It is critically important that we dig deep into what they say and what they teach. Paul spoke very harshly and directly when confronting many of the same things these men teach as truths. Believe me, it is NOT the same gospel. “

Brother Travis, I know what you are taking about, and there are many teachers out there that are
adding or subtracting from the gospel. In other words there is a lot of mixture, but I want to know what these men are teaching that is a false gospel. There were many men in the faith movement that taught many of Kenton’s teachings on positive confession, and our identity in Christ that were not false teachers. They preached the gospel, but on the other hand they taught things that were not in line with the scriptures. There are many false accusations being made against true men of God on these forums. We won’t agree on every thing, but I believe we understand the true gospel message, and that we have a love for the truth, and that we can disagree but still stay in unity. I apologize to any brother or sister that I have disagreed with, but have not done so in love.

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Mike

Dear brothers Todd, Travis & Evan, you bring up great points about the specific context of Paul’s exclamation in that passage, and I can see how this is different.

Thank you also for the kindness in your posts, it really blessed me how you all responded.

If I’m hearing you all correctly, your primary concern is which gospel is being preached.

As you saw and heard, they said the name “Jesus” a whole lot during that event.

Like TrueWitness just posted in another thread, the simplicity of the gospel is in Christ Jesus.

Nothing more, nothing less.

So while many are debating worship and preaching styles and even broader doctrinal matters, surely we can agree that the name of Jesus was lifted up in Times Square that night?

Please don’t read into this post as if I am in agreement with their broader ministries, because that is not what I am saying at all.

It is just remarkable to me how some people are mightily encouraged and blessed by something that absolutely disgusts and grieves someone else.

How can this be in the Holy Spirit?

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Caleb

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Caleb

Caleb I agree it’s easy to sit here and be nit-picky on the forum.

If I had to choose between having what the video showed and not having anything (or having some totally worldly entertainment) in Times Square then obviously I would choose what was on the video.

It is true that those in the crowd very likely don’t have any idea of the criticisms we are talking about. It is true that God could have worked in their hearts. Absolutely.

Generally I would have been more charitable towards things of this nature. But several years back I got suckered in to prophetic-y type ministry and to my shame it took me about 2 years to realize what a bunch of utter nonsense it was. So perhaps I am overly sensitive now about things like this because I am worried about folks getting sucked in to the New Agey hybridism with Christianity as noted in Travis’s posts (and it’s good too see you back Travis!).

But I do think there is a danger in saying something is ok just because Jesus’s name is mentioned. Sometimes all we can say is that it is better than nothing, but whether that is truly the case is up for question. It may not be better than nothing and may be much worse.

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Todd

We do have to be careful…

I was saved under a preacher who led me to some Word of Faith preachers. I listened to Hagin, Copeland, etc…back in the 80’s after I got saved. But I read the Bible and prayed continuously. I got rooted in the Word of Christ. I eventually quit listening Copeland and his false teaching. Then I quit listening to the rest of WOF preachers even though there was truth in their messages.

The Holy Spirit will lead and guide into all truth. The Apostle Paul was glad that Christ was being preached but he also lead them away from false teaching. He also warned them of false apostles, prophets and teachers.

Philippians 1:15-18 (KJV) 15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

2 Corinthians 11:4 (KJV) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

Greg, the cults (Mormons, JWs, Moonies etc) many times put christians to shame with their dedication and service. It doesn't mean that they have a valid message. I'm sure many of them are "raising a testimony" in many places. It matters that ministries have the right message, the right Spirit, the right Jesus. Not just any will do.

I believe there is intense persecution coming to the church in North America. People who follow ministries who feed their flocks with nothing but wind will fall away, unless they get a hold of the real Jesus. All of the slogans and false, pumped-up joy in much of the NAR will deflate like a balloon.

God bless you brother.

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Nigel Holland

I will submit what I see as the issues in one broad stroke, and leave it with you brethren.

We live in a day that seems everything is prophetic and everyone a prophet. A prophet is one that speaks God's words, and who lives and demonstrates the words he speaks. He live the life of intercession (intercession is not a form of prayer, it is a life that identifies with the purposes of God in self denial and bearing the cross for specific purposes in God). These men, in proclaiming themselves apostles and prophets, put themselves in a position of judgment from those that truly hold those offices, as well as the body of Christ in general, as we are commanded to test them, and cast them aside if they are weighed in the balances and found wanting. It is not critical to judge "prophets" or "apostles", it is commanded in scripture.

These men are not prophets, and many are documented false apostles and prophets who have condemned themselves, with no help from anyone else (it's your own choice to ignore these things and follow them still, we all must stand before the judgment seat alone).

The entirety of that event was a circus. I know God, I walk with Him daily every minute, converse with Him constantly about everything, I know Him and He knows me. So yes, I know that event was not of God.

Call me arrogant, a heretic, or whatever it is you would like, I stand or fall before my Lord and no man.

That entire event was soul and flesh, and man glorying in their ministries and themselves. There was no "message", only empty and hype driven cliches and "declarations" renaming a city and calling people to superficial commitments that will fizzle out until they attend another event like that, get another dose of mass hysteria and hype, and ride that high until they come down. It's very much like drugs, it elicits endorphins and serotonin in the hype and emotion, but lacks any depth or spiritual reality.

I have attended these, and to my shame, preached at events like this in the past. They are the same now as they were 20 years ago, as the world system only superficially changes, but never does anything differently.

I can go into the soulishness of it; the selfishness of it; the theological ramifications of it... But the deepest irony is the prophetic significance of it and how it is exactly corresponding with other prophetic events. Jesus warned us to the letter about these exact things, as does every warning about last days apostasy and false prophets (please keep in mind this isn't a doctrinal debate, these men are claiming to be prophets and apostles, which makes this situation completely different than a doctrinal debate).

This isn't Calvinism versus Arminianism versus Wesleyanism or other such trifles and time wasting debates.

This is literal false prophets and apostles leading hundreds of thousands of people astray right in our backyards.

We are not just held accountable for our words, but also our silences when we should speak out.

May God have mercy on us if we allow this to continue unchallenged and unrebuked.