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| | Full circle | | "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that her desolation is near" (Luke 21:20).
I'm just thinking how we have come full circle. The prophets spoke of the final desolations of Jerusalem at the hands of its final eschatological enemy before the appearance of the Messiah that would bring the nation into its spiritual rebirth and allow the nation to lie down in safety never to be molested again by hostile Gentile powers. Jersualem was destroyed, the nation was carried captive into the nations, then, against all odds, was regathered and 1878 years later Israel appeared again as an official nation in much the same manner and condition it was when it disappeared. No other nation in history has undergone this. And now once again, we see Jersualem surrounded by hostile armies intent on its destruction. And the Messiah has not come - to us His second coming. To Israel and the Jews the first appearance of their Messiah. Why have we come full circle and appear to be right back where we were centuries ago? Same nation, same circumstances. We are right back where it all started.
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David Winter
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|  2023/11/1 22:18 | Profile | brothagary
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| | Re: Full circle | | Matthew 10:22You will be hated by everyone because of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (In judgment)
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| | 2023/11/1 22:27 | Profile | BranchinVINE
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| | Re: Full circle | |
docs
Quote:
And the Messiah has not come - to us His second coming. To Israel and the Jews the first appearance of their Messiah.
It was revealed to the Jewish people at the FIRST coming of Christ that Jesus is their Messiah. Therefore, when the Lord Jesus comes again, it will be His SECOND coming to ALL, BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
At the first coming of Christ, John the Baptist announced to the Jewish people that that Jesus is the Lord, Jehovah, prophesied by Isaiah:
John 1:22-23 –
Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” He said, “I am a voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”
God the Father revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah:
Matt. 16:15-16 –
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
And on the Day of Pentecost Peter declared to the Jewish people that Jesus is the Lord and Christ, their Messiah:
Acts 2:22,36
“Men of Israel, listen to these words: ……………… Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Paul continually proved to the Jewish people from the scripture that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah:
Acts 9:22 —
But Saul kept increasing in strength and confounding the Jews who lived at Damascus by proving that this Jesus is the Christ.
Acts 17:2-3 –
And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.”
Acts 18:5 –
But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.
Acts 18:28 –
for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
Note:
Messiah comes from the Hebrew word mashiach and means “anointed one” or “chosen one.” The Greek equivalent is the word Christos or, in English, Christ. The name “Jesus Christ” is the same as “Jesus the Messiah.”
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Jade
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| | 2023/11/3 3:48 | Profile | docs
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| | Re: | | /It was revealed to the Jewish people at the FIRST coming of Christ that Jesus is their Messiah. Therefore, when the Lord Jesus comes again, it will be His SECOND coming to ALL, BOTH Jews and Gentiles./
I understand completely what you are saying. Yet it's no secret that many Jews today do not believe Jesus is their Messiah. In their understanding, when the Messiah arrives, it will be for the first time and it won't be Christ. But we know they are wrong in this belief. The Scriptures you point out very adequately show this.
My point is that the nation and Jerusalem was surrounded by hostile armies and were razed and most of the population was exiled into the nations. Against all odds, 1878 years later, the nation reappeared again largely in the spiritual and natural condition in which it disappeared. No nation before or since has reappeared in this manner. It's a totally unique happening in history although they are largely in unbelief but it was prophesied they would be regathered largely in unbelief. And now the nation and Jerusalem are once again surrounded by hostile armies intent on its destruction. We have come full circle and are right back where we were and Christ has not come again.
I don't believe the church is now Israel. The NT nowhere declares this to be so and actually, in places, it declares just the opposite. The word Israel in the NT is not automatically a synonym for the church.
Meanwhile, we have come full circle.
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David Winter
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| | 2023/11/3 8:37 | Profile | CofG
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| | Re: | | Brother, the question is not whether the church is Israel but whether Jesus is. All in Jesus would therefore be in Israel spiritually. The church and all who have faith are His body.
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Robert
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| | 2023/11/3 8:41 | Profile | ESchaible
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| | | 2023/11/3 8:44 | Profile | docs
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| | Re: | | CofG,
I don't think you are wrong. To me, it's a very nuanced truth in many ways. If I can say it that way. Many times the word Israel is even used in the NT to describe those of Israel who have rejected Christ. Any preacher or teacher that declares the church is now Israel does not stand on solid exegetical grounds and should declare to his audience first of all that what he is saying does not appear anywhere in the NT. He hasn't been given the authority by God to make this unscriptural change. To its own harm, especially in the area of eschatology, the belief that the church is now Israel has been used like a hammer blow to destroy and nullify many of the prophecies made regarding Israel in the end-time and its future after that.
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David Winter
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| | 2023/11/3 8:55 | Profile | BranchinVINE
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| | Re: | |
Hi Robert,
Quote:
The church and all who have faith are His body.
The Church is Christ’s body. The Church is made up of those who are IN Jesus, of those who have faith in Jesus.
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Jade
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| | 2023/11/3 9:51 | Profile | BranchinVINE
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| | Re: | |
Hi docs
Quote:
And now the nation and Jerusalem are once again surrounded by hostile armies intent on its destruction. We have come full circle and are right back where we were and Christ has not come again.
Today, 1953 years on from 70 AD, except for a very small number, the Jewish people continue to reject Christ.
If we have come a full circle and history repeats itself, 1953 years on the Jewish people will still be rejecting Christ.
Quote:
I don't believe the church is now Israel. The NT nowhere declares this to be so and actually, in places, it declares just the opposite.
Rom. 9:6-8 –
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all ISRAEL who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Gal. 4:28 –
And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
Note: The brethren here are the Church in Galatia. According to Paul, they are Israel, Abraham’s descendants, and children of the promise.
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Jade
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| | 2023/11/3 10:17 | Profile | ESchaible
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| | Re: | | The confusion is essentially this:
The Bible teaches we are included in the promises given to Israel, the physical descendants of Abraham, via faith in Christ.
The Bible does not teach we have replaced Israel in those same promises via faith in Christ, but that through our inclusion faith in Christ will come to physical Israel (albeit after a final judgment), the descendants of Abraham.
Notice Paul calls us children of promise, not children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; children of God. We are LIKE Isaac, regarded AS (both similes) but nevertheless not his descendant.
Inclusion and replacement are very, very different; and that difference makes all the difference in the world, both to God and His promises.
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| | 2023/11/3 10:33 | Profile |
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