| Poster | Thread | drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 974
Campbell River, B.C.
| | Re: | | Why would God take one man (Abraham), make him a great nation that would bless every other nation on earth, make promises to his descendants (specifically about the physical land they occupied), promise and fulfill that the Messiah would come through them, give them the Holy Scriptures, just to discard them after the Messiah had come?
Read Romans 11 very carefully. God is not done with Abraham's physical descendants.
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." Romans 11:25-27
There is a distinction made there between the physical Gentiles and the physical Jews. I believe the fullness of the Gentiles is nearing completion. We will soon see a massive revival among the Jews which will overshadow even Pentecost.
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Nigel Holland
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|  2023/10/17 0:29 | Profile | CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 782
Cambodia
| | Re: | | Brother,
I don't think God is done with the Jewish people by physical descent in the least precisely because of Romans 11 as you correctly point out. I was pointing out that there is a physical and spiritual Israel and Jew. There is a partial hardening that will be lifted when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete. Some have said it has already begun before the fullness but I can't justify that from the plain wording. Once the fullness is over, then physical Jews by descent will be brought in by the promises to the fathers through repentance and faith in Jesus. That's how I think Romans 9-11 reads plainly.
The point is that there is a spiritual Israel (not all Israel is Israel) and there is a spiritual Jew and in both cases, physical Jew and physical Gentile are one new man in Christ.
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Robert
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| | 2023/10/17 2:58 | Profile | BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1209
Australia
| | Re: | |
Quote:
Matthew 27:37
And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Firstly,
Rom. 2:28-29 –
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Secondly, Christ’s kingdom is not the earthly land of Palestine.
John 18:36 –
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”
Quote:
Our saviour is Jewish
There is an infinite difference between our Saviour and the Jewish people. Christ came through the Jewish line according to the flesh BUT He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and for this reason was born the Son of God (Luke 1:34-35). Are the Jewish people born of the Holy Spirit? Are they born the “Son of God”?
The Lord said to the Jews, “Truly, truly, I say to you, BEFORE Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58).
The Lord Jesus is Creator. The Jewish people are His creation.
To bring the Lord Jesus down to the level of His creation is to lose sight of His infinite greatness and power.
Col. 1:16-17 –
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
And just the visible universe, which is estimated to be 93 billion light-years across (and one light-year is about 9 trillion kilometres) and is made up of billions of galaxies, and each galaxy containing billions of stars, is beyond our grasp and comprehension. And the power that holds the universe together is equally unimaginable.
And this is just a small glimpse of Christ’s greatness and power.
Ps.95:6 –
Come, let us worship and bow down,
Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
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Jade
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| | 2023/10/17 10:45 | Profile | ESchaible
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Joined: 2023/6/24
Posts: 313
| | Re: | | Just a thought in response to the comments about bringing Jesus down to the level of His creation, and that He isn't Jewish.
Jesus brought Himself down to the level of His creation, that is the humility of God. He made Himself of no reputation and became fully human, just as He is fully God. Jesus was in fact a Jew, king of the Jews as a matter of fact.
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| | 2023/10/17 10:52 | Profile | BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1209
Australia
| | Re: | | When Jesus was on earth, was He a sinner like all of us?
Is Jesus a King of sinners?
And I ask again: Are the Jewish people conceived by the Holy Spirit?
Jesus is the Second Man.
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Jade
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| | 2023/10/17 11:04 | Profile | deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2287
Hemel Hempstead
| | Re: | | 2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Jesus is not the king of sinners , jesus was not a sinner like the rest of us
As this is basic Christianity
Jesus genology in the beginning states that he is from the line of David and Jewish even going back to Judah
Matthew 1
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: note
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus is from the line of David and Jewish not only from his mother side but he is adopted into Joseph line because God is his father
As jesus was circumcised the eighth day in the temple
Luke 2:21
And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called JESUS, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.
The Jewish people are not conceived by the holy spirit only jesus was concieved by the holy spirit
The thing is if Jesus was a sinner there is no way that jesus could die on the cross for our sins which is the basics of the gospel
If Jesus was not Jewish then there is no way that he could fulfill the old testament prophecies in scripture such as pslam 22 and Isaiah 53
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Dominic Shiells
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| | 2023/10/17 12:07 | Profile | ESchaible
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Joined: 2023/6/24
Posts: 313
| | Re: | | Well if the antisemitism rampant in this thread isn't already revealed, let it be now.
I bow to, and call the king of the Jews my Lord.
Jesus is Lord.
As I've said for years, and have recently taken to saying again here on this message board lately, the issue of Israel will always sift the church. It's high time to take heed to Paul when he exhorted gentile believers not to boast against the natural branches. God does not take the issue of His covenanted people lightly.
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| | 2023/10/17 13:28 | Profile | TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6547
NC, USA
| | Re: | | //Well if the antisemitism rampant in this thread//
Where? Don’t get hysterical.
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Todd
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| | 2023/10/17 13:42 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4760
| | Re: | | Hi BranchinVINE,
Quote:
Firstly,
Rom. 2:28-29 –
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Secondly, Christ’s kingdom is not the earthly land of Palestine.
True. However, Christ's kingdom will be located in that earthly land of PROMISE -- currently where the secular nation of Israel is located.
Remember: Paul -- who wrote this passage in Romans at roughly 58 AD also wrote the 2nd epistle to the Corinthians at roughly the same year. He made a distinction regarding Gentiles and Jews in nearly every epistle -- including Romans and 2 Corinthians. When he was "boasting" in 2 Corinthians 11...
.......
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I.
23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one—I am talking like a madman—with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death.
24 Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; 26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; 27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant?
30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
2nd Corinthians 11:22-30 (ESV)
.......
Paul reiterates this in Philippians 3:5 when he said:
.......
4 "If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.
7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Philippians 3:4-11 (ESV)
.......
There are distinctions between the Jews and the Gentiles even if there is no distinction when it comes to SALVATION -- at least until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Romans 11:25).
Remember: This covenant between God and Abraham was made ~430 years before the law of Moses. So, for nearly half of a millennium, a covenant existed prior to when the Law of that covenant was (literally) written in stone.
Of what did that covenant consist?
.......
Genesis 15
After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision:
“Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”
2 But Abram said, “O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
6 AND HE BELIEVED THE LORD, AND HE COUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 And he said to him, “I am the Lord who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.”
8 But he said, “O Lord God, how am I to know that I shall possess it?”
9 He said to him, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half. 11 And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him.
13 Then the Lord said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. 14 But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. 16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.
18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”
Genesis 15:1-21 (ESV)
.......
This land was a part of this promise. Did the land (a gift) or the calling of the physical Israel end because of the grafting in of Gentiles?
Regarding physical Israel, Paul wrote:
.......
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.
30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Romans 11:25-32 (ESV)
.......
Peter reiterates this in Acts chapter 2-4. Remember, the apostles preached repentance and faith in Christ to the Jews first (i.e., physical Israel) until Acts 10-11 (~8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost).
In his message to physical Israel after the healing of a lame man, Peter preached:
.......
11 While he clung to Peter and John, all the people, utterly astounded, ran together to them in the portico called Solomon's.
12 And when Peter saw it he addressed the people: “MEN OF ISRAEL, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk?
13 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.
14 But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. 16 And his name—by faith in his name—has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all.
17 “And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled.
19 REPENT THEREFORE, AND TURN BACK, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
25 YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE PROPHETS AND OF THE COVENANT that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”
Acts 3:11-26 (ESV)
.......
Even when Jeremiah prophesied of the coming "new covenant," the LORD said that he was making it with "the people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Jeremiah 31:8-9 ESV). Even here, there is physical distinction -- this time between the people of Israel and the people of Judah. This is likely why the Gospel was first preached to Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria (i.e., Northern Kingdom of Israel).
It's my view that God makes no distinction between physical Israel and Gentiles when it comes to salvation. In addition, I believe that the original covenant was based upon PROMISE. The gifts and calling of that promise are irrevocable -- because God is not a liar. That promised LAND is a gift that has not been revoked. Even God's calling to physical Israel has not been revoked -- even if salvation is entirely based upon FAITH in Christ Jesus (because Moses wrote of Christ -- as we read in John 5:39-47).
At the same time, the gifts and calling of God -- to physical Israel -- are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).
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Christopher
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| | 2023/10/17 14:12 | Profile | deogloria
Member
Joined: 2020/2/12
Posts: 354
| | Re: | | Jade thank you for those Scriptures, refreshing to read.
Just adding Eph. 1:
v 19 and the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of His mighty strength,
20 which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms,
21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.…
Our pure and undivided devotion needs to be to Christ, and Him alone !
May He come quickly. !
Markus |
| | 2023/10/17 14:32 | Profile |
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