A while back something occurred to me while studying out a matter in scripture, this led me to question wether we actually have “free will” as it’s commonly assumed in various Christian circles and to date I have found absolutely zero affirmative passages in scripture….

Perhaps I’m simply missing it 🤷🏽‍♂️

Has anyone else here on SI been confronted by this topic or perhaps has some notes or experiences with this topic?

note; I’m not asking wether we are free to choose, that much is clear from scripture- but that is different from “free will” as it’s commonly stated as a belief-

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Fletcher

I think God gives us the ability to choose Him - at the beginning of our salvation and throughout. The new birth makes the difference. Through it, we become free to choose Him as before we were in bondage and unable to choose. The freedom to choose Him is His empowering and gift.

Well. I just reread your thoughts. Maybe I described the type of free will you are making reference to.

Thanks.

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David Winter

Hey Fletcher it may be helpful if you would state what you think the opposite of free will is. I.e. if we don’t have free will what does that mean?

I would add that if we do not have free will (as I understand that concept) then we were not created in God’s image.

But it may be you are thinking if something different.

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Todd

Well the implication of “free will” is that we are free to will… which by definition would be free from consequence-
Before anyone offers a knee jerk response, let me explain (per Todds request) what occurred to me-

In the garden, Eve was seduced and beguiled by the serpent into believing that she had the freedom to choose a thing without consequence. The devil dod so by suggesting that she was in fact free to choose to disobey God without the said consequences- he did this by very subtly making it about her flesh whereas God was referring to her spirit. So when she partook of the fruit she did not (physically) die and seemed to verify the serpents claim… but she did (die) spiritually in that she now is conscious of her physical person in a way hereto before had not been. Then she gave to her husband to eat, demonstrating that she herself had eaten of the fruit and was in fact very much alive- Adam did the same and experienced the same-

Yet neither seemed to realize their condition until God showed up the next morning at which point they both were overwhelmed by the awareness of their condition…

So, the real issue was spiritual not physical, but neither had this knowledge until they disobeyed and exercised their supposed “free will” which was ultimately a lie, no?
In reality they never had free will, or freedom (from consequence) to will themselves, rather they had freedom to choose either life or death. To put it another way, they were free to choose sin or righteousness-

The conclusion that I’ve (tentatively) come to is this-
We are slaves and will inevitably serve one of two masters… loving one and hating the other- choose this day whom you will serve, etc…

Perhaps this is best illustrated by Paul in Romans 6:

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There seems to be a hyper consistent, from beginning to end, proclamation of this fact in scripture.

note; This weekend, while searching out this matter I looked to see if any of the champions of our faith had found/come to the same conclusion and interestingly (for me) Spurgeon apparently held this particular position, even defending it. Once I discovered this I immediately stopped my inquiry into those whom may have or not and went back to scripture so as not to be influenced by any other persons. Now I’m hoping someone will give me pushback to see if it is or if I had missed something-

To be clear, I am suggesting that it seems scripture only, exclusively and repeatedly states we only have the freedom to choose between obedience and sin- life or death (spiritually) -


Thank you both for helping me it means more than you might imagine 🙏🏻

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Fletcher

Fletcher-

In your tentative view, does everything a person choose fall into either the category of choosing obedience or sin?

In other words, if I choose to eat a turkey sandwich for lunch instead of a salad, does it fall into one of those categories?

I guess I am still not 100% sure what you mean.

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Todd

"But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." Romans 14:23

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Nigel Holland

Ha! Great question-
Yes, ultimately it would tho it’s more about why than what …

So allow me to parse this out and list a few examples-
Eve had hunger (natural desire) but she fulfilled it in an ungodly way, which is to say outside the will of God-
Jesus had hunger in the wilderness and being likewise tempted to turn the stone into bread, He suffered the hunger rather than succumb to the temptation of the devil-
Paul in Romans 14 states “nothing is in and of itself unclean, yet of a man thinks of t is, for him it is”

So (for me) it’s a matter of conscience…
That brings us to Esau / Jacob where a natural desire to satisfy hunger cost him far more than he could have ever imagined,… even to the point of not finding a place of repentance. The scriptures state “God hated Esau” for giving into that desire (though in an of itself isn’t sinful) yet he allowed that desire to overcome his devotion to be obedient in that he (Esau) didn’t act in faith towards the Lord but rather yielded himself to be a servant (slave) of his flesh.

Even now we have restrictions on our food sources in that we are not to consume things that were strangled to death so if the turkey had been strangled and we knew it… or if we had a personal conviction regarding shellfish or pork then the same would apply….

Hope that helps and thanks for continuing to help me come to a clearer understanding myself 🙏🏻

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Fletcher

“.. For Christ’s love compels us…..” 2 Cor 5:14

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Todd

I’m a bit confused as to how that verse relates to the topic of free will…🤔
Would you please elaborate …

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Fletcher

Maybe it doesn’t- but the reason I posted it is that Paul seems to be saying that he is compelled to act (perhaps against his fleshly preference) because of the love of Christ, I.e. his natural desire(“low” will) is trumped by his desire to please Christ (“high” will). Christ’s love compels taking the high road.

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Todd