"if so from who"

Satan and his world system, ie. All that is in the world - everyone.

We are already seeing it's initial stages in the rampant and global rise in flagrant antisemitism. The time of Jacobs trouble will follow Jacob wherever he is found, whether it's violent Islamic nations or cultured American ones, Germany was the height of culture directly preceeding the Holocaust.

EDIT: If my math is correct based on scripture, approximately 9-10 million Jews will be killed worldwide in the space of 3.5 years, some time soon in the future.

What scripture, if you don’t mind telling.

_________________
Todd

Here is a correct eschatology from God and last days instruction from God for the saints that likewise corresponds with God's definition of acceptable faith for the true saint facing persecution and suffering :

Eschatology of God to His Bride:

Hebrews 12:
18 For you have not come to what could be touched, to a blazing fire, to darkness, gloom, and storm, 19 to the blast of a trumpet, and the sound of words. Those who heard it begged that not another word be spoken to them, 20 for they could not bear what was commanded: If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.[h] 21 The appearance was so terrifying that Moses said, I am trembling with fear.[i] 22 INSTEAD, YOU HAVE COME to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God (the heavenly Jerusalem), to myriads of angels, a festive gathering, 23 to the assembly of the firstborn whose names have been written[j] in heaven, to a Judge, who is God of all, to the spirits of righteous people made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which says better things than the blood of Abel.

25 See to it that you do not reject the one who speaks. For if they did not escape when they rejected him who warned them on earth, even less will we if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven. 26 His voice shook the earth at that time, but now he has promised, Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.[k] 27 This expression, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what is not shaken might remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful. By it, we may serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Instruction and Warning for the Saint in the midst of the things of earth shaking:


12 Therefore, since we also have such a large cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us lay aside every hindrance and the sin that so easily ensnares us. Let us run with endurance the race that lies before us, 2 keeping our eyes on Jesus,[a] the pioneer and perfecter[b] of our faith. For the joy that lay before him,[c] he endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him who endured such hostility from sinners against himself, so that you won’t grow weary and give up. 4 In struggling against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons:

My son, do not take the Lord’s discipline lightly
or lose heart when you are reproved by him,
6 for the Lord disciplines the one he loves
and punishes every son he receives.[d]

7 Endure suffering as discipline: God is dealing with you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline—which all receive[e]—then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had human fathers discipline us, and we respected them. Shouldn’t we submit even more to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time based on what seemed good to them, but he does it for our benefit, so that we can share his holiness. 11 No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore, strengthen your tired hands and weakened knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated[f] but healed instead.


Warning against Rejecting God’s Grace and instruction for last day living :

Hebrews 12
14 Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness—without it no one will see the Lord. 15 Make sure that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no root of bitterness springs up, causing trouble and defiling many. 16 And make sure that there isn’t any immoral[g] or irreverent person like Esau, who sold his birthright in exchange for a single meal. 17 For you know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, even though he sought it with tears, because he didn’t find any opportunity for repentance.

Acceptable Faith:

Hebrews 11 which precedes Hebrews 12 in sequence and also in thought:

13 These all died in faith (OT saints who are examples and witnesses to us), although they had not received the things that were promised. But they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth. 14 Now those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they were thinking about where they came from, they would have had an opportunity to return. 16 But they now desire a better place—a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.


If our faith and our overarching eschatology has this teaching as it's priority and focus in the last day, it will go a long way to getting the Bride ready and being an example to the world that is now being shaken and rushing toward a cliff that has no bottom. IF we are focused on social reformation then it seems that we are counseling in a contrary direction to God's. The earth and the world system will be shaken. We are called to put our hope completely on the grace to be revealed at His Coming.

_________________
Robert

Seeking revival is seeking God.

A simple word search for "seek God" gives us many references in the Old and New Testament.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Colossians 3:1
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Those who really seek God will at times encounter the manifest presence of God, which is not the end in itself, but a wonderful token of God's grace, heavenly manna, memories that lace your live with sweetness and a storehouse of grace to draw from in times on hardship or loneliness.

They are constant reminders, that there is always more of God for you and others to have.

I had a number of those encounters, alone and with others, they are precious stepping stones, and can turn into bread of life when shared with hungry souls.

Paul was not disobedient to his heavenly vision.

Heavenly vision is a bye-product of seeking God, but nothing we should seek for itself. I am not talking about private revelation. If the vision dims, we need to repent and seek God again.

We need to see Christ glorified in our Spirit ruling with our father at the right hand of God, like Stephen.

When the world and its systems collapse, and peace taken from earth and hells forces released, we MUST have a firm foundation and an unshaken sure faith that Christ will come back very soon to rule and reign forever.

The friend of the bridegroom is shouting: sleeping virgins, trim your lamps! This is the revival call.

Who is this friend of the bridegroom? You guess.

Curiously, only one of those verses actually mentions seeking God, but glaringly points out that He rewards the seeker. If "seeking revival is seeking God" (leaving out that this essentially deifies revival), and God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him, where is the revival? It will be said, we haven't sought Him diligently enough; to which I respond: this mentality is the reason we don't see revival, and likely won't, because if it were to come man would receive the glory for seeking diligently enough, and God will share His glory with no man.

If those experiences are "the bread of life", why then did Jesus say He was the bread of life?

If there is always more of God for us to have, has He dissected Himself and only given us part of Himself? If so, which part? God isn't a substance or force, or some thing you can have more of when you want it, God is the creator of the universe and all reality, and upholds it with the power of His Word. He is a knowable being, and this mentality that wants "more of God" is so far removed from what Jesus taught it's almost beyond my comprehension how it gained such a foothold in believers lives. Satan is clever, and he will mask defeat in victory and use any phrases and words he can to sneak it into the believers lives.

Does He give the Holy Spirit WITH measure, when it clearly says in John the Holy Spirit is given WITHOUT measure, meaning all of HIM or none?

God is a person, we can't have have just part of Him.

Aside from this, why do we think God is something we can have for ourselves? What happened to us being something God can have for Himself?

We don't need to see Christ glorified in our spirit, the Holy Spirit has quickened and raised Him up from the grave, and He is glorified. We need God the Holy Spirit to form Christ in us, because the Lord is the Spirit of the Father, the indwelling Trinity.

We need to see truth, and deplore cliches.

You said "Peace taken from the earth", - so the earth/world has peace? Jesus said we will have tribulation and the world will hate us, but to not let our hearts be troubled because He will come to us, indwell us, and He Himself will be our peace. Hells forces are unleashed dear brother, trust me.

I agree with having the vision that Stephen had, but it requires dying the death that he died. We all want the visions but avoid the death at all costs.

The depths of egocentricity know no bounds in our day, especially when God is reduced to a possession we can essentially carry in our spiritual pockets and seek Him out when we lose Him somewhere (this sounds facetious but is the same mindset).

Walking with the Father by the Spirit with Jesus living and moving and having His being in us, is LIFE in the manifest presence of God.

You said, "Those that seek God will at times encounter the manifest presence of God" - So you're telling me you can have one without the other? The "manifest presence of God" is... Well... God being present. These ideas of pillars of smoke, clouds of smoke, fire descending on altars, where this cliche comes from, are gone with Moses. Jesus is greater than Moses, and the Mosaic covenant has been nailed to His cross.

Jesus dwells within me, which means I am the manifest presence of God, Christ in me the hope of glory. I no longer live, but Christ liveth in me. The life we live is by faith in the Son of God, who loved us and gave Himself for us to save us from law and sin.

What your telling me sounds quite similar to the Mosaic covenant, if we do this than God does that, spiritual quid-pro-quo. It's no wonder we see so much defeat in the professing church.

See my original post.

When I posted about the presence of God, I knew beforehand what reaction would come.

@ESchaible, have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?

The point I was trying to make was simply that so much of many peoples Christianity is based in accepted cliches and jargon, rather than scripture and genuine spiritual experience.

What you're telling me is pious sounding and most people would agree, but once I was sanctified it seems I am reading a completely different Bible than most of the people I talk to or interact with.

These cliches about the presence of God are preached constantly, but I don't find them in Jesus or the apostles teaching; I only find them in the Mosaic covenant, (which Jesus saved us from), and pulpits that do nothing but tell people what they should do, be, do more of, or aren't doing well enough, and never talk about what God has done, who and what Jesus is, or we are by faith.

Christianity is not an ethical religion that sets up vague standards towards which we should aspire, in order to get things from God (including this "manifest presence of God" idea). That is Judaism, ethical humanism, pragmatism, etc.

Jesus is to us all that we need, but so few people walk in that reality because they are stuck inside rules and legalism, and haven't experienced life, only the knowledge of good and evil.

The quid pro quo mentality toward God is why we see nothing but decline in our day. God desires to give and man desires to earn, so God waits for man to humble Himself and receive, because the pride of earning is sin.

I really don't want to detract from the point of this thread however, given every day it seems we step closer to Jewish people that need us to be the light to them being slaughtered world wide. The original post I made is eerily more pertinent now than when I made it, and every day becomes a more urgent call for the church to seek God for authenticity and reality, because charismatic soulish religion will not carry us through the time that is quickly approaching.

Would that we seek God, it seems judgment is at the door step.

@ESchaible

[If those experiences are "the bread of life", why then did Jesus say He was the bread of life?]

Jesus said:
Matthew 14:16 But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat.

Jesus asked his disciples to pass on bread. This is a proper description of what a servant of God should do. You receive it, and pass it on.

[If "seeking revival is seeking God" (leaving out that this essentially deifies revival), and God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him, where is the revival? It will be said, we haven't sought Him diligently enough; to which I respond: this mentality is the reason we don't see revival, and likely won't, because if it were to come man would receive the glory for seeking diligently enough, and God will share His glory with no man.]

Seeking God means bringing my life in line with God's commandmends and his word. That is not a work, it is surrender. I am just giving him what is due. He has given everything to me, I am just giving what I previously held back, nothing more.

[You said, "Those that seek God will at times encounter the manifest presence of God" - So you're telling me you can have one without the other? The "manifest presence of God" is... Well... God being present. These ideas of pillars of smoke, clouds of smoke, fire descending on altars, where this cliche comes from, are gone with Moses. Jesus is greater than Moses, and the Mosaic covenant has been nailed to His cross.]

If you study the NT, you will notice that the apostles had special encounters with God, visions, dreams, etc. which were landmarks in their ministry. Paul spoke of them, but almost downplayed them. The Lord revealed to him what he will have to suffer in his name, and that he was to testify before rulers and kings.

These visions helped him to carry on when there was little hope, when he was imprisoned and abandoned.
You sound a bit sarcasitic here. I a not talking about OT manifestations. These were accompaniying signs, but not the thing in it self.

[I vomit the term 'manifest presence of God']
Sorry to cause you indigestion. This is a strong statement, are you really sure?
I know there are a lot of counterfeit claims on the manifest presence of God, but sorry brother, you trash something precious, that you likely have never experienced, and perhaps never will this side of glory.

Are you sure that all of those who did in fact encountered the presence of God, encountered something you regard as "vomit"?

ESch said:

“Jesus dwells within me, which means I am the manifest presence of God, Christ in me the hope of glory. I no longer live, but Christ liveth in me. The life we live is by faith in the Son of God, who loved us and gave Himself for us to save us from law and sin.”

“He is already here, waiting for us to simply acknowledge His presence. I vomit the term 'manifest presence of God' back at this present age as the God of the Bible is in fact omnipresent, or nowhere at all.”

“Stop seeking Him, for He is already in you - turn your thoughts to Him and walk free and the heavens shall be first cleared of this worlds powers, and than revival shall come in all of Gods glory.”

Brother, How can you say that we are not to seek God in light of all of the scripture that says that we are to seek God. I could give you many scriptures on this. Here are just a few of them.

“if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14)

“I love those who love me, and those who diligently seek me will find me. Proverbs 8:17
But from there, you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul. Deuteronomy 4:29
So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. Luke 11:9-10
‘You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13

There is definetly a manifest presence of God.
God lives in every born again believer, but He manifest Himself to the one that loves Him and keeps His commandments.


The person who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who [really] loves Me; and whoever [really] loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him [I will make Myself real to him].” (John 14:21)

This is not a normal church service where the presence of God is there in a measure, but at times the manifest presence of God, the glory of God will be experienced by believers that are gathered together to worship the Lord.

“When revival comes, God's glory is manifest and His presence is evident. The whole church becomes ablaze with His glory! Revival restores our first love for Christ. It resets our focus on Him alone.” “Herald of His Coming”

In II Chron. 7:1-3, the bible says “Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the house. And the priests could not enter into the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord’s house. And when all the children of Isreal saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the Lord, saying, for He is good; for His mercy endureth for ever”.

_________________
Mike