The scriptures are clear wether anyone believes them are not 🤷🏽‍♂️

the unstable and double minded will do nothing in the way of changing the scriptures regarding their application in judgment-

Personally, I’ve never met any who as you characterized, “relish the idea” of eternal torment consciously or otherwise….
Rather most people that I’ve met that know the Lord, fear Him and the terrible judgment that’s coming ✝️ they don’t want anyone to be condemned on that day and urge with all sobriety and earnestness…. Repent, turn to God and obey the gospel 🙏🏻

There is no profit in arguing, rather consider this verse and ask Him yourself so that it will no longer be a matter of opinion nor interpretation-

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

_________________
Fletcher

“Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Philippians 2:9-11

The part after the last comma is key.

_________________
Todd

Dukster,

I used to always go to tentmakers website and dabbled heavily in christian universalism. Then the Lord gave me a ministry teaching in the local jail to the women and He asked me point blank, "Are you going to teach universalism to those of childlike faith? And tell them there is no hell?"

With the Lord asking me that question, I figured if HE is inclined to know what I was going to teach to His little ones, then it isn't a valid teaching.

I am convinced but for you (and others), I offer the following articles from Dr Michael Heiser:

https://drmsh.com/the-premises-of-universal-salvation/

https://drmsh.com/romans-512-and-universalism-applying-my-take-on-romans-512-to-the-problem/

God bless you in your search,
Lisa

_________________
Lisa

Universalism in whatever form undermines Christ's redemption, weakens the effacy of the cross, makes light of Christs suffering and death, mocks the martyrs und those whose suffer in Christ's name. It excuses sin and cheapens holiness. It is damnable, there can be no compromise to this doctrine of demons.

OSAS is a form of universalism limited to the so called "elect". There are so many warnings to believers not to forsake the faith, not to believe lies, sinning against others, or grow wary or slacking off.

People who believe or teach these doctrines want them to be true.

And why do we have so much difficulty with works? There are works of the the devil, the flesh, and the law and works of faith and the Spirit. As long as we concentrate on the latter 2 we are doing well. Everybody who abides and believes and walks in the Spirit will do Gods works.

Agreed Narrowpath.

Another thought occurred to me: Jesus said that every sin can be forgiven except blaspheming the Holy Spirit; He said it will not be forgiven in this world OR THE WORLD TO COME.

So even staunch universalists must concede that there are some people that will never, under any circumstances, now or in eternity, be forgiven.

I guess they are forced to imagine that the people that commit the unpardonable sin will be annihilated. They can probably change their beliefs to suit the current scripture they are trying to twist.

_________________
Nigel Holland

narrowpath

_________________
Jade

drifter

_________________
Jade

I know I'm not Narrowpath but I would like to see you (and dukster) to provide historical, original, quotes from the early church fathers that believed in patristic universalism.

Not alluding to or a book that says they believed in it but ACTUAL quotes stating they wrote about it and believed the Bible stated it, please.

Thank you,
Lisa

_________________
Lisa

Lysa

Scripture is the authority.

We will discuss my question to narrowpath based on scripture alone.

_________________
Jade

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’…

Ephesians 5:5 For this you know with certainty, that no sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, which amounts to an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

The Bible is very clear that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Where the rest will end up would be a different topic.
Our focus should be on the Good News, the true Biblical Gospel but with a warning about the bad news that "not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven..."

Markus