Most of the arguments that I hear against Universalism are straw men. Patristic Universalism was the prevailing doctrine during the first four hundred years and most of the Early Church Father held to this view. A much better case can be made for Universal Reconciliation or what the church fathers called Apocatastasis using scripture than eternal torment.

This isn't true, dukster. While you might find a handful of teachers who claim this, it's simply not the case. Moreover, even if some (or perhaps many) of the "early church fathers" held this view, it doesn't make it biblically sound.

In fact, the Epistles existed at the time of the apostles because there was already so much false doctrine being proclaimed during the time of the "early church." There are pseudepigraphal "epistles" and even "gospels" that are tainted and uninspired.

The standard for spiritual truth isn't history or tradition. It isn't the early "fathers" either. Rather, the standard for spiritual truth is the Bible alone. This is not to say that we cannot learn from the early church ideals. Rather, they're merely a contextual historical anecdotes rather than some inarguable truths.

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Christopher

Chris-

Do you have a “number 1” scripture that you believe refutes UR or do you just think it’s a preponderance of scripture taken as a whole? In other words do you believes it d reasonable doubt or rather a preponderance of the evidence?

Just curious.

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Todd

Hi TMK,

Good question. I suppose that it is a macro versus micro understanding of Scripture. Reading the Bible through cover-to-cover repeatedly is very helpful in "seeing" the big picture of such matters. For the most part, this helps when it comes to avoid being carried away by "various winds of doctrine" that are sometimes based (in part) on a particular verse of passage of Scripture.

I suppose that I could gather together passages of Scripture that, in context, refute a UR perception. Yet, doing this typically invites a battle of doctrines where singular verses or passages are tossed back and forth like artillery shells.

Yet, for me (and in regard this underlying message of salvation), the proper context begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. In between all of it, there is a very real understanding of "salvation" that is seen. In fact, the entire Biblical narrative is connected in this regard. Through reading it all (with an honest and open hunger for truth rather than prior established dogma), I cannot find any semblance of an "apocatastasis" end result.

This doesn't mean that I cannot perceive why some might come to some sort of conclusion after some study. However, I do think that even one entire read-through of the Word of God -- from Genesis through Revelation -- helps in this regard.

Consequently, the passages that I hear that are used to substantiate various universalism ideas end up as "strange" when the verses are read in the ever-growing context of the Biblical narrative. In fact, I do make a list of issues that I hope to find clarity with during each new journey through the Word. Last year, I added "salvation" as something to consider as I started through Genesis and ended in Revelation. It's amazing how this topic is found throughout most books of both the old and new testaments.

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Christopher

Thanks for the reply.

I’ve read through the Bible every year for a lot of years and I am not as certain as you are. The best I can say is that I am not certain.

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Todd

dukster-

One word set forth as the condition,… “if”

G1437-
ἐάν;
I. a conditional particle (derived from εἰ ἄν), which makes reference to time and to experience, introducing something future, but not determining, before the event, whether it is certainly to take place; if .


Hebrews 3:
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

note; here☝🏼we have Holy Spirit speaking -

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, ((((if)))) we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Also speaking to believers in the previous chapter-

1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.


This is only one example that torpedoes the hull of this ship,… not only are there many more individual passages but the whole council speaks likewise as there would be no need of any warnings whatsoever if God intended to forcibly require belief and subsequent obedience to Christ, which by the scriptural definition would not only be witchcraft but rape 😳
God the Father is neither a witch nor a rapist 🤷🏽‍♂️

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Fletcher

//if God intended to forcibly require belief and subsequent obedience to Christ, which by the scriptural definition would not only be witchcraft but rape 😳
God the Father is neither a witch nor a rapist 🤷🏽‍♂️//

Have you seriously considered what the doctrine of conscious eternal torment really means? Forcing someone to believe (a position which of course no evangelical proponent of UR holds) would be far less terroristic than the doctrine of CET.

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Todd

Terroristic !??
That’s how you choose to characterize Gods righteous judgement?
By definition, you are laying charge at the feet of God to be conducting unlawful violence and intimidation!??

Todd, there is only one word that suffices….

REPENT✝️

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Fletcher

You do not believe UR can be true because in your opinion it would make God a rapist and a witch (your words, not mine).

I have strong doubts about the doctrine of conscious eternal torment because of implications to God’s character.

What’s the difference? If you turn out to be wrong, won’t you have to give account for your characterization of God as a rapist witch?

The obvious implication of CET is that, if true, God created humans knowing that the vast vast vast majority will be tortured forever and ever. If you want to be gung ho about that, have at it!

Now of course CET may be true. I’m not going to say that is not possible. But I sincerely hope that it is not and I certainly don’t relish the idea as the great swath of Christians seem to do.

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Todd

We discussed this a while ago in this thread

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=64577&forum=34&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0