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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine :  God Knows All Things Past, Present and Future

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havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 JFW

JFW,

Please prove the following statement:

“As stated before, the church has a patently Greek concept of God.”

I don’t see it, but perhaps you can explain how me reading the Scriptures and coming to conclusions has been hijacked by Greek philosophers who have been dead for thousands of years.



 2022/6/5 15:08Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 Re:

TMK,

Please define “minute meticulous sovereignty.”

 2022/6/5 15:28Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

This thread has me thinking. My wife and I are finishing up another journey through the Old Testament. During our morning Bible reading times, I have been reading the entire Bible -- book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse -- aloud. My wife reads her Bible alongside as read aloud. This is our third journey in a row that we are nearly completed. It has been a wonderful series of experiences.

Throughout our most recent journey through the Old Testament, I have been struck by how many references there are to the Name of God.

We read the Bible in English. Many people are fully aware that when they read the word "the LORD" (with "LORD" in all capital letters), it is an English representation of the Name of God. This Name is, translated into English, YHWH. It has no vowels. In Hebrew (including proto-Hebrew), it is literally four Hebrew letters -- yodh, he, waw, and he. It is often referred to as the "Tetragrammaton."

While this Name for God (often pronounced "Yahweh," "Jehovah" or some other similar pronunciation) appears early in the Scriptures, it's historic origin in terms of Scripture recitation goes to Exodus chapter 3. This is the place in Scripture where God speaks to Moses from the burning (well, non-burning even though its aflame) bush.

There are arguments as to how the Name is pronounced. Apparently, during the Babylonian captivity (or possibly thereafter), the story goes that the Israelites in captivity didn't want to take the Name in vain. So, they preferred to say "Adonai" ("my Lord"), "HaShem" ("The Name") or "Elohim" ("God") anytime the Name appeared in Hebrew scripture (or even in conversation). Eventually, throughout the diaspora, the pronunciation was (supposedly) lost.

I actually disagree with this widely accepted history regarding the loss of pronunciation. The Masoretes added vowel markers in what culminated as the Masoretic text of Hebrew scriptures. Moreover, the shortened form of the Name appears within many Hebrew names. For instance, Elijah is literally "Eli Yah" (or "my god is Yah"). Moreover, the word "hallelujah" (or "halalu yah") is literally the Hebrew imperative phrase "[you shall] praise Yah" (or "praise ye Yah"). See Psalm 150:1.

When John had his Revelation, he heard voices in Heaven crying out "Hallelujah" (Revelation 19). This reference in Revelation is particularly important because it is the only direct inclusion of the shortened form of the Name (i.e., "Yah") in the New Testament.

In terms of pronunciation, John was a Jew in the 1st Century. He didn't translate that word into Greek -- but retained the Hebrew phonetic pronunciation transliterated into Greek. He retained the Hebrew pronunciation. It's interesting to me because that word is essentially the same pronunciation in virtually every language (even if it has often lost its meaning).

So, as we have been reading, I keep reflecting on the references to the "Name." It is the "Temple of his Name." God would save Jerusalem "for His Name's sake." "If my people who are called by my Name." It's important from Genesis through Malachi.

Okay. So, what does this have to do with this discussion?

I kept going back to Exodus chapter 3. This is when God tells Moses what His Name is. Moses was concerned that the Hebrews might ask who the "God of your fathers" might be. So, Moses asked the LORD what he should tell them. God answered, "I AM that I AM." He told them to tell them, "I AM has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:14-15).

The Hebrew word's phoneticized pronunciation for this in the Masoretic text is "ha Ya" (whereas the "ha" is pronounced more like a "high"). In the Strong's concordance, this would be found as reference H1961.

This is where I think that it fits into this conversation. This "ha Ya" doesn't simply mean "I AM." It can also mean "I WAS" and "I WILL BE." In fact, some Bible translations include a footnote to Exodus 3:14 that shows this. The "Ya" here is understood to be the shortened form of the Name (i.e., "Yah" as in "Yahweh" or "Yahova"). In fact, the root of this phrase is literally "I EXIST" -- past, present and future.

This certainly resembles what we also read in Revelation 1:4 -- referring to God as "who was, who is and who is to come." It is also found in verse 8 (and there are even several worship songs with verses based upon this opening benediction from Revelation 1).

This eternal nature of God shouldn't surprise us. After all, Hebrews states rather clearly that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). The concept of eternity is not an ancient past, the current present and the endless future. For God, it is an eternal state of "now." There is no time (or time limits) to God. This is literally the meaning of His Name.

In fact, I was recently reading some studies about the possible "first spoken words" for human beings. Linguistic anthropologists were mostly suggesting some form of "ma," "da," pa" or "wa" -- because they are cross-cultural references to mother, father and water/food. However, I decided to look at the Bible for the REAL answer.

We know what Genesis chapter 1 states about creation. "In the beginning..." However, the first actual spoken words recorded in the Bible are found in Genesis 1:3: "Let there be light."

I went back to the Masoretic text to see this in Hebrew. After all, I think that there is a strong argument that proto-Hebrew was the first language on Earth (and there are several reasons why).

The Hebrew phonetic for the phrase "Let there be light" is "ha Ya ore."

Does that sound familiar? The "or" is Hebrew for "light." However, the "ha Ya" for "Let there be" is the same root used in Exodus 3:14 for "I AM."

The interesting thing to me is that we immediately remember what Jesus said to his disciples: "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12). We also know that John wrote that, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). It goes on to immediately call the Word "light" (i.e., "the Light of men" and "the Light shines in the darkness" in verses 4-5).

In physics, we learn about physical light. It is often referred to as the "universal constant" or the "universal speed limit." Einstein pointed out that nothing in the universe could exceed the speed of light. In other words, there is almost an eternal nature to it. Yet, in a spiritual sense, Jesus is the Light of the world -- the Light of all creation.

I fully embrace the notion of the omnipotent AND omniscient nature of God. This is despite the fact that my mind (or this side of the "glass darkly") cannot comprehend it (John 1:5). The eternal nature -- and knowledge -- of God is found in His very Name. The Name of the LORD invokes this eternal constant -- that the LORD was, is and is to come. There is nothing -- including no thought -- that can be hidden from the light of his face. He makes known the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

Now, I won't try to apply this into endless debates over the nature of salvation -- because I believe strongly that God can choose people who can walk away from him (the captivity is pretty solid anecdotal evidence of people who are "called by my Name" turning away and even going toward idolatry).

So, I won't debate the merit or extent by which the omniscience of the LORD may or may not subvert human choice. I just know that we are given the imperative to "Choose you this day whom you will serve..." However, the omniscience of God is beyond debate. God is eternal and, throughout eternity, knows everything.

The LORD bless you and keep you! May His face shine on us all.


_________________
Christopher

 2022/6/5 15:59Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 Re:

Thanks, Christopher! I really enjoyed reading your post!

 2022/6/5 16:15Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

//Please define “minute meticulous sovereignty.”//

Charnock sums it up well.

You also must deeply consider the implications of what this means, and you will understand why I think, if it is true, God is the most supremely bored Being.

If I knew everything in advance, including the supposed “free will” actions of my creation, how is this a true relationship? If you knew in advance everything a loved one is going to say, do, or think, how is that a true relationship? “Ho hum” is all that it is.

I agree that God knows all there is to know.


_________________
Todd

 2022/6/5 17:27Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: JFW

Please prove the following statement:

“As stated before, the church has a patently Greek concept of God.”

I don’t see it, but perhaps you can explain how me reading the Scriptures and coming to conclusions has been hijacked by Greek philosophers who have been dead for thousands of years.


Havok,
Not Greek philosophers, satan is the hijacker, greek philosophy was merely the means to shift the focus from the internal back to the external...
Which in many ways mirrors the external purification practices of Judaism, in that the focus was on the appearance of perfection but devoid of purity of heart - Paul remarks and warns in Acts 20, of grievous wolves and men speaking perverse things drawing the disciples away unto themselves.
There was a constant attack on the early church by Roman, hoping to assimilate them and ultimately did so around the time of Augustine where we find the “church” as a state institution shortly after having been persecuted for 300yrs...

Greek/Roman history and culture, philosophy and mythology (concept of God) had permanently replaced the Hebrew version by the early-mid 400’s
in all but a few cases.

You, me, we all were taught that to conceive of a proper concept of God, the first principle is omniscience followed closely by omnipotence, omnipresent, an all seeing and knowing and in complete control of everything else it just wouldn’t be what “God” is.....
like you and everyone else I know, I accepted this premise and it wasn’t until I became a disciple and really began to attempt to follow the Jesus of the Bible that my study of scripture got serious enough to notice that the God of the Bible wasn’t at all like I had imagined and while there is great comfort in believing in such a “God” the truth is, that’s not at all the way He presents Himself in the very first book containing the story of creation. Here we find quite a different concept that we sometimes try to (I did) force fit our idea/concept onto the scriptures and/or force fit the scriptures into our little boxed view of “God”. This invariably leads to massive holes that require allot of theological and doctrinal caulk to fill. But if we love the truth, we will accept it regardless of the consequences. Not only in Genesis but in every book where God is named, and in the one He’s not ;), this same distinctly Hebraic concept of a Holy and deeply intimate God is at once set against our primarily Hellenistic concept itself being an aggregate of intersecting cultural beliefs from the ancient kingdoms, the potted meat of paganism.
Today these concepts have risen to the forefront of “modern Christianity” unencumbered much like yeast in freshly kneaded dough.....the tares amongst the wheat, virtually inseparable. An extreme example of Greek philosophy in the church was the popular “cheap grace” movement where the foundation of unbiblical doctrines was exposed underneath that had remained covered for centuries, tho ultimately fomenting the current form of “narcissistic Christianity” we see today. In every case where this leaven has taken hold, there is also found a “body” not under the headship of Christ, rather under the headship of the church and it’s creeds and confessions.
For example, we may say sola scripture but when the scriptures raise a standard, we retreat to our preconceived notions where our conscience can be comforted, not by the Holy one of Israel but by the “god” of our imagination wearing a Jesus t-shirt, this is idolatry plain and simple.
Again this (greek) concept of an all knowing deity whom controls everyone’s actions giving only the appearance of free will is completely divorced and unreconcilable to the verses I put forth from the first few chapters of Genesis and it only gets worse from there... the books of Jeremiah are an eternal stalwart standing against this imported concept🤷🏽‍♂️

The intertwining of Hellenistic Greek into Jewish culture and religion had already begun well before Jesus came and according to scripture will be so when He returns, hence the narcissistic Laodiceans (Rev 3).
This influence is historically observed and recorded.

Much like how our medical schools are heavily influenced by big pharma, likewise our seminaries are heavily influenced by big church and as the scriptures record,... the outer court was defiled by the gentiles -




_________________
Fletcher

 2022/6/5 20:12Profile
Platy
Member



Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 293


 Re: Fletcher

If God does not know the future then how were the old testament prophets able to prophesy/write down events before they happened? How does one reconcile this?

What about so called modern day prophets? If there is no foreknowledge of God then why support them?

Isaiah 41:21-24 - [21] Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.[22] Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. [23] Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. [24] Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.

Isaiah 44:6-8 - [6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. [7] And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. [8] Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 46:9-11 - [9] Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: [11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

 2022/6/6 11:58Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 TMK

TMK,

“ I agree that God knows all there is to know.”

Regarding the future, what would be some things that God does not know? Now, I understand that God does not know impossible things such as what a circle with corners would look like. I’m not looking for specifics of course, because if we could know the specifics then we would know more than God. But just in general, theoretically, what would be some things that God has no knowledge of, at least at this current present time?

 2022/6/6 12:14Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 Re: JFW

JFW,

“ Again this (greek) concept of an all knowing deity whom controls everyone’s actions giving only the appearance of free will…”

I appreciate your response. While I still fail to see how the above description, while definitely not how God works, is even remotely a Greek concept of God. In fact, I don’t know of any Greek gods that are anything like this at all. I know of no Greek philosophers who believed the above statement. There are only two groups of people who I know who use the above statement: the hyper Calvinist, and the arminian claiming that anybody who is reformed is a hyper Calvinist.

Of course I’m not here to debate Arminianism versus calvinism, or to decide where exactly the Bible lands on that spectrum, if it lands there at all. The discussion we were having is about who our God is. This is a far more important topic, because what we don’t want to have happen is to discover that we don’t worship the same God. I honestly do want to avoid that accusation coming from me or coming from anyone else.

So I have a few questions. The first question is regarding the three Omnis. Do you believe that God is not everywhere present in all of creation? Generally, I’m merely asking the location and boundaries of God.

The second question is this: understanding that God is not going to desire to do something that makes absolutely no sense such as making a square circle, desiring to sin, or make a rock so heavy that he can’t lift it— Do you believe that the Bible demonstrates a limit to the power of God?

The last question is this: are there any truths Past, present or future— Future dealing specifically the end result of eternity future— That God has not yet learned, does not currently know, or is unsure of exactly how they will pan out?

I am not trying to spring a trap on you, you’ve already declared that you don’t believe in omnipresent, omniscient, or omnipotence. I’m just trying to figure out what in the world you do believe about these things. Thank you in advance for answering these questions.

 2022/6/6 12:30Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re: TMK

As discussed before, a person who holds to Open Theism says that the future does not exist *now*— even for God. God has every possible fact and knows the heart of man and has all data available to Him, but He does not know the future because it simply does not exist now. Therefore this would be no different than saying God does not know non- existent persons. The reason I gave the somewhat simplistic example of the square circles is simple to show it is no assault in God’s omniscience to say he does not know impossible things. If the future does not exist NOW it is impossible to know it, even for God.

Now I realize it may sound like I hold to Open Theism. I admit I think it solves certain problems without denigrating God one whit if true. I am just not 100% convinced that the future does not exist now.

But I am convinced of one thing- we are not puppets and God is not a puppet master. Charnock’s view must ultimately lead to this conclusion.


_________________
Todd

 2022/6/6 12:36Profile





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