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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the creeds

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deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2023
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Here was my answer , lysa is right were is your love

The reason I say this if you want to start this on another thread as the main title of this thread is not is 1 thess 4:16 related to noah and lot

1 Thess 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

To me which is a spurious link

It is almost logically incoherent question and the causial fallacy

Causal fallacies
Causal fallacies are informal fallacies that occur when an argument incorrectly concludes that a cause is related to an effect. Think of the causal fallacy as a parent category for other fallacies about unproven causes.

One example is the false cause fallacy, which is when you draw a conclusion about what the cause was without enough evidence to do so. Another is the post hoc fallacy, which is when you mistake something for the cause because it came first — not because it actually caused the effect.

pencil-alt icon Study Tool
Which kind of causal fallacy is at work in these examples?

EXAMPLE 1

"Jimmy isn't at school today. He must be on a family trip."

EXAMPLE 2

"Every time a rooster crows, the sun comes up. Crows must be the creators of the universe."

I have quoted from this site https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/#causal-fallacy

It is like circular reasoning we answer the question ,you ignore the answer and think you are right

To link these verses together it at best fallioous and it it completely of topic it is one big red herring

It also shows a lack of honesty and not interacting with the other arguments ..

In love please actually read what we have said as if you do not interact with what we have said you are missing the person behind the question
_-----------------------

Staff , why do we have to minute quandary when you have verses that directly contradict the rapture

Why is I am ignored and then try to get on a red herring as linking the verses to lot and noah

Matt 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

You need to read this in the light of genesis as only noah and his family were saved

When it says they were taken , they were taken for judgement they died in both cases

Genesis 7
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. note

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark

So everyone who was taken died

Genesis 19
22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. note

23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. note

24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

So in the life of lot those that were taken were destroyed

These two biblical historical events have nothing to do with 1 Thess 4

I cry as people who believe in the pre trib rapture miss the major things and focus on the minors

As deal with all the verses that directly contradict and go against the pre trib rapture

God bless

Dom.

Ps note there is no references to harpizo to the biblical accounts of noah and lot
αρπαζω occurs 30 times in the OT. ge.37.33 ; le.6.4 ; le.19.13 ; de.28.31 ; 2sa.23.21 ; job.20.19 ; job.24.2 ; job.24.9 ; job.24.19 ; ps.7.2 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.22.13 ; ps.50.22 ; ps.104.21 ; is.10.2 ; eze.18.7 ; eze.18.12 ; size.18.16 ; eze.18.18 ; eze.19.3 ; eze.19.6 ; eze.22.25 ; eze.22.27 ; ho.5.14 ; am.1.11 ; am.3.4 ; mic.3.2 ; mic.5.8 ; na.2.12


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/4/15 16:52Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2075


 Re:

Hi Delta,
You know right well the main aspect of this post from the start is to get a good old kick in at the Pre Trib rapture believers.Same as always on SI with Post trib view.
By and large Pre Trib tribbers dont treat Post trib believers in the dispicable way that Post trib believers treat Pre Tribbers.
You delibrately refused and still wont answer the question which is totally related to rapture theology.
You have posted really long incoherent posts and all I want to know is whether you think the two scriptures are talking about the same events.
Are the two passages related yes or no.Its a fair question which I answered myself remember.
urs staff

 2022/4/15 17:21Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2075


 Re:

Hi Lysa
You can take sides if you want but dont pretend that you are not.I could easily say you are equally not behaving as the 2nd Commandment says.Where is the love from Docs or Delta and yet no complaints from you.
Delta and Docs brought up a subject and are point blank stubbornly refusing to answer a simple question while pretending they are not .So if you want to be even handed in your critisism then I can accept that but you are not in my opinion.
If they said hey we cant answer your question ,I would say ok thats fine and leave it at that,
urs staff

 2022/4/15 17:40Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2023
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Staff this was my oringal post I have lovingly answered your question I even posted my previous answer in the previous post

My original thinking was the fact that if the rapture was important it would be written in the early church creeds or by the early church fathers and throughout church history .

You have not even touched this subject even thou this was my original post

I even answered your question again if you like but I think it is a casual fallacy to even link the two passages together as the word harpizo is not mentioned in the greek passages of the septugient in neither of the those two passages you mentioned .

I can start a new thread with this question if you would like God bless Dom
_--------+++++++++


The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the creeds Reply To This Post | Edit |
It is my birthday today
The word rapture is a 16th century word. It is Latin it is not the English of rapimiure. This I found shocking.

The early church didn't know this word , the apostles did not know this word , why as Christians should we be even using this word.

You think a secret coming to his church and then a third coming

This is the apostles creed it does not mention it

Do you believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

Nicene creed

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.

Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, became human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the uncreate and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, the prophets, and the Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.

We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, in the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life

No rapture , not a mention of it in any of the creeds of the Christian faith

Not mentioned in the didiache
Which is an early Christian writing
Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

Creed of chaceldone
Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He was parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.

Maybe the early church fathers

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;" (First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110)

Irenaeus (AD 140-202) "he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)

Tertullian (AD 150-220) "that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, Revelation xviii and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 25)

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Cyprian (AD 200-258) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... "The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…" Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times," (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2)
Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3)

None of the early church , apostles or Paul knew what the rapture was , they would look at you blindly in ignorance , what is that as one they didn't speak Latin
To me it is dangerous because it becomes hidden knowledge


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/4/16 0:27Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2075


 Re:

Hi Delta,
When you "Lovingly" "answered" did you say Yes or No and could you highlight where you said Yes or No please?
If you didnt answer yes or no could you tell us all why you didnt?
Urs staff

Your qoute
Staff this was my oringal post I have lovingly answered your question I even posted my previous answer in the previous post

 2022/4/16 5:24Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2023
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Staff I feel this is fruitless as all you have to do is read
I feel like I am hitting my head against a brick wall as it is not a simple yes or no answer but I have answered the question
Answer my question what has this got to do with the subject as it is a complete red herring or rabbit hole


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/4/16 14:58Profile





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