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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the creeds

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TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 572


 Re:

I appreciate the diverse views being shared here concerning the 'rapture'. It is an interesting subject for sure and I don't want it to be something to cause strife and division amongst the flock. So I thought I would give my take on it here. If we look at Revelation 19 we find it right after the fall of Babylon.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Remember the parable of the 10 virgins. This is that event.

So the church (Bride) is taken to heaven to celebrate the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It does not say how long it lasts whether it is a day, days, weeks or even a month. But after this intimate time celebrating the marriage supper, Christ along with the Church following Him on white horses descends to Earth to reclaim Earth for God:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

And so the rapture precedes the Second Coming but not by a huge amount of time. While they aren't the same event, the amount of time separating them when compared to the 2000 years or so since Christ's first coming is just a blip.

Again, I don't want to be dogmatic about this. If you disagree, I am not offended. And since nobody knows when the fall of Babylon occurs, I am not 'date setting' here.

-Daniel

 2022/4/10 11:53Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2506


 Re:

It really doesn't matter how we may ask about I Thess 4:16 and how it lines up with other scriptures etc. or how many try to jimmy things around and question whether this really means this or that. The Scriptures, spoken by Christ Himself SIMPLY and CLEARLY state that Christ will come again and the rapture will occur after the tribulation of those days. What does after the tribulation of those days mean? I'm willing to grant and accept that that it means after the tribulation of those days. There is no need to stir any conjectural pots or add to what is there or speculate as to sequence. Scripture provides an answer as simple as tying one's shoes. Thank the Lord He intended it that way.


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David Winter

 2022/4/10 13:57Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2075


 Re:

Hi Docs
So are you saying that you cant answer the question.Is it the same or not?
If its so simple why cant you answer the question?
Is Jesus Prophesy about Noah and Lot the same as 1 Thess 4:16?
Surely if its that simple and straightforward and obvious and is easy as tying your shoes you could answer that question?dont you think
urs staff


My earlier post :
Hi Docs,
Let me ask you the same question that Delta didnt answer

Are Jesus's Prophesy of Noah and Lot the same event as 1 Thess 4:16 ?

 2022/4/10 15:22Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2023
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Hi Docs
So are you saying that you cant answer the question.Is it the same or not?
If its so simple why cant you answer the question?
Is Jesus Prophesy about Noah and Lot the same as 1 Thess 4:16?
Surely if its that simple and straightforward and obvious and is easy as tying your shoes you could answer that question?dont you think
urs staff


My earlier post :
Hi Docs,
Let me ask you the same question that Delta didnt answer

Are Jesus's Prophesy of Noah and Lot the same event as 1 Thess 4:16 ?

This is not the same , if you are asking about another was taken and another left .

In the examples of noah and lot there is does not use the same Greek word harpizo in the greek septugient and therefore does not link up with 1 Thess 4

The problem is in the case of noah and lot those that were taken died in god's judgement, they either got destroyed by flood or by fire and brimstone.

They did not get harpizo out and it is not a good anology with the so called pre trib rapture

But even if you look at 1 Thess 4 it does not describe the pre tribulation rapture, it describes the resserection at the second coming , the corresponding passage in 1 cor 15 , the whole passage talks about the resserection.

In early commentaries on 1 Thess 4 that is what they described it as

Sorry I was meaning to answer it

I just dealt with one question at a time


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/4/10 15:41Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2506


 Re:

What does AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days mean? Does it mean after the tribulation of those days or does it mean something else?


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David Winter

 2022/4/10 15:54Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs
Im asking a simple easy question here to be fair ,Is Jesus Prophesies of Noah and Lot the same as 1 Thess 4:16?
Put another way do these two things happen at the same time??
Urs staff

 2022/4/10 16:55Profile
Platy
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Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 272


 Re:

2 Peter and Jude also have verses about the second coming. I was reading the post by TrueWitness and then looked at what Jude says:

Jude 1:14-15 - [14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, [15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

So the text says "the Lord cometh". I believe this is the second coming? But it also says he comes with ten thousand of his saints. Where did those saints come from? Anybody can reconcile this with Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4?

I hold to post trib. loosely btw.

 2022/4/10 20:12Profile
Platy
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Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 272


 Re:

Actually nevermind to the verse in Jude that's referring to angels I think.

Cross references -

Matthew 25:31 - ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Hebrews 12:22 - But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 2022/4/10 20:52Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2023
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:


Good references platy and every reference refers to jesus returning with his angels

The concept of 3 comings is not in the scripture

As it is like saying that there are 2 genesis accounts when there is only one and creating a false dichotomy

This is what has happened with the resserection/ rapture and second coming they split the two when it is just one event

Paul or any of those who knew Paul didn't know about it and John Nelson Darby suddenly had a revelation of it which wasn't from scripture
Anyone who is into the pre trib rapture needs to do a study as his translation outrights denies the deity of jesus

It is not something that is clear in the text it does not say in the bible

2 hesitations 1:2 the rapture happens before the tribulation


What's assumed from the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage is that once jesus descends and you will meet him in the clouds is the marriage supper of the lamb but it says this nowhere in the actual passage
The actual passage does not say that jesus ascends either it just says that he descends
Paul could have used the word heaven rather than the word air as there are different greek words

1 Thess 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. note

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Nowhere does it say the marriage supper of the lamb is seven years and the only reference is in revelation

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

This verse is interesting

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God

This is at armgaddon so there is no way that the marriage supper of the lamb can happen at the rapture as it is fairly gruesome


Whenever you see jesus returning in scripture such as the wheat and the tares or where it talks when the son of man comes and all his angels with him

The bible says the opposite

They tend to point out differences but not refer to the text

To me the real nail on the head is


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/4/11 1:10Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2075


 Re:

Hi Deltadom
I dont agree at all the rapture or the coming of Christ is not in the scripture regardless of John Darby views or not.The scripture has to be argued with Scripture not with what John Darby taught or thought .Whether we call the coming of Christ the word "rapture" or something else is not important.Paul of course did mention the coming of Christ and knew all about it

I asked you a simple (yes or no) question and you cant answer it and neither can Docs.Is Jesus Prophesy about Noah and Lot the same event as 1 Thess 4:16???
urs staff

Your qoute:
Paul or any of those who knew Paul didn't know about it and John Nelson Darby suddenly had a revelation of it which wasn't from scripture

 2022/4/11 3:21Profile





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