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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the creeds

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 Re:

Hi Deltadom,
The problem for the Post Trib believer is that they will have to have a "soft" non global tribulation for 1 Thess 4 to occur after the tribulation.
I just dont see the great tribulation being a soft time but rather the opposite its the worst time in civilization.
Jesus makes it clear that Judgement comes when everything is relatively normal,they did eat and drink,give in Marriage,plant ,sow ,build etc then comes the judgement.
You can determine that the Lot and Noah examples are not after the Great Tribulation but before.
your qoute:
In 1 Thess 4 it says we will meet the lord in the air. ἀέρα
Is the greek and it says the lord will descend in the passage it does not say the timing and you cannot determine that this happens at the beginning of the tribulation,

urs staff

 2022/4/8 20:29Profile
passerby
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 Re:

Luke 17

30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

On that day, in that night it says... two men... and two women...taken...left...something extraordinary will happen.


What is that day or night, second coming? Some people are raptured?

 2022/4/9 10:54Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
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Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Re: Reply To This Post |
Hi Deltadom,
The problem for the Post Trib believer is that they will have to have a "soft" non global tribulation for 1 Thess 4 to occur after the tribulation.
I just dont see the great tribulation being a soft time but rather the opposite its the worst time in civilization.
Jesus makes it clear that Judgement comes when everything is relatively normal,they did eat and drink,give in Marriage,plant ,sow ,build etc then comes the judgement.
You can determine that the Lot and Noah examples are not after the Great Tribulation but before.
your qoute:
In 1 Thess 4 it says we will meet the lord in the air. ἀέρα
Is the greek and it says the lord will descend in the passage it does not say the timing and you cannot determine that this happens at the beginning of the tribulation,

urs staff

–------------+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Have you looked up the word harpizo

1th.4.17 ] επειτα [THEN] ημεις [WE] οι [THE] ζωντες [LIVING] οι [WHO] περιλειπομενοι [REMAIN,] αμα [TOGETHER] συν [WITH] αυτοις [THEM] αρπαγησομεθα [SHALL BE CAUGHT AWAY] εν [IN "THE"] νεφελαις [CLOUDS] εις [FOR "THE"] απαντησιν [MEETING] του [OF THE] κυριου [LORD] εις [IN "THE"] αερα [AIR;] και [AND] ουτως [THUS] παντοτε [ALWAYS] συν [WITH "THE"] κυριω [LORD] εσομεθα [WE SHALL BE.]

726 αρπαζω occurs 13 times in the NT. occurs 30 times in the OT. from a derivative of (138) harpazo 1:472,80 har-pad'-zo Verb from a derivative of (138) ; to seize (in various applications) :--catch (away, up) , pluck, pull, take (by force) . to seize, carry off by force to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly to snatch out or away

αρπαζω occurs 30 times in the OT. ge.37.33 ; le.6.4 ; le.19.13 ; de.28.31 ; 2sa.23.21 ; job.20.19 ; job.24.2 ; job.24.9 ; job.24.19 ; ps.7.2 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.22.13 ; ps.50.22 ; ps.104.21 ; is.10.2 ; eze.18.7 ; eze.18.12 ; eze.18.16 ; eze.18.18 ; eze.19.3 ; eze.19.6 ; eze.22.25 ; eze.22.27 ; ho.5.14 ; am.1.11 ; am.3.4 ; mic.3.2 ; mic.5.8 ; na.2.12

If you look up all these references to harpizo there are no references to noah .

The problem is that the references in the old testament do not match up to what people say of people like Enoch and Elijah

The other problem is where do we go as the marriage supper of the lamb is at the end of the tribulation

There are verses such as Matt 24 where is says that as the lightning comes from the east unto the west so shall the son of man come and in rev 1:7 where every eye shall see him this does not give any room for a secret rapture


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/4/9 11:41Profile
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 Re:

Hi Deltadom,
To be clear here are you saying Jesus's Noah and Lot prophesies are not the same as 1 Thess 4 and they do not happen at the same time and that they are different altogether?
staff

 2022/4/9 13:16Profile
deltadom
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Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

No what I am saying is that when you look up the Greek word harpizo which is the Latin for the word raptuma it is not in the greek septugient in those stories

My problem is there are many verses that contradict the pre trib rapture or resserection

When it says they were taken the context of the passage is that they were taken for judgement

The big problem is with the pre trib theory is that nowhere in 1 Thess 4 does it give a timing but the lord descends

It doesn't say we will meet the lord in the air we will go to heaven and have the marriage supper of the lamb for seven years

The problem is the only verse that mentions the marriage of the supper of the lamb is at the end of the tribulation at the second coming

Rev 19
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Compare)

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

It says the air and not heavens

Acts 3
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (Compare)

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Matt 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Revelation 1
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


These verses go against the pre trib rapture

There are more such as this.
2 Thess 1
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, note

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: note

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

There are so many other verses that go against it


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/4/9 14:54Profile
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 Re:

Hi Deltadom,
So what are you saying about these verses are they the same event or not?

My post:
To be clear here are you saying Jesus's Noah and Lot prophesies are not the same as 1 Thess 4 and they do not happen at the same time and that they are different altogether?
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 2022/4/9 16:43Profile
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 Re:

Hi Deltadom,
Just a reply to this section of your post.The rapture is not secret.The only reason poeple think the rapture is secret is because they think its not visible because its instantaneous.
So whoever thinks the rapture is secret is incorrect ,its the opposite everybody sees it because its not instantaneous,
urs staff

your qoute:
There are verses such as Matt 24 where is says that as the lightning comes from the east unto the west so shall the son of man come and in rev 1:7 where every eye shall see him this does not give any room for a secret rapture

 2022/4/9 16:47Profile
deltadom
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Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

The thing it is three comings
It is once for the church and then for everything else
The thing is even from 1 Thess 4 which I can refer to the early church fathers commentary on this passage saying it is to do with the end time resserection
The concept was not there

Jesus is not coming three times if he does in Matt 24 that would make him coming for the church not jesus as Matt 24 says if he is in the secret chamber believe it not or believe he is the desert believe it not
So if you read Matt 24:26-27 correctly
He is only coming twice not three times not unless the rapture is the antichrist according to verse 23-24

Matt 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Nowhere in scripture does he say he is coming for his church and then the second coming as this would go against that and make the rapture antichrist return


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/4/10 1:51Profile
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 Re: The Word's Divinely Intended Clarity on the Issue Seems to Stumble Many

The timing of the only rapture at the second coming of Christ is an issue so clearly and simply revealed in the Word it's like tying your shoe or taking a breath of air. It's complicated nor was it meant to be. Only since the 1830s with the advent of pre-trib Darbyism did the issue become controversial and muddy.

A tribulation unlike any other before or after will occur at the end of the age (Jer 30:7; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:22; Rev 7:14).

29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It's profoundly sime and was meant to be. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, there will be celestial phenomena that will occur then Christ will come again with power and great glory.The angels will sound the last trumpet and we will be gathered to him. Period. Simple. No more debate. It's simple and easy to understand and it's by the Lord's graciousness he made it basic 101 clear. The simplicity seems to stir people many times to try and complicate the issue. Thank the good Lord he made it so simple and easy to understand.


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David Winter

 2022/4/10 9:26Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs,
Let me ask you the same question that Delta didnt answer

Are Jesus's Prophesy of Noah and Lot the same event as 1 Thess 4:16 the ?

your qouted scripture:
29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 2022/4/10 10:06Profile





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