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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the creeds

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deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2023
Hemel Hempstead

 The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the creeds

It is my birthday today
The word rapture is a 16th century word. It is Latin it is not the English of rapimiure. This I found shocking.

The early church didn't know this word , the apostles did not know this word , why as Christians should we be even using this word.

You think a secret coming to his church and then a third coming

This is the apostles creed it does not mention it

Do you believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

Nicene creed

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.

Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, became human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the uncreate and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, the prophets, and the Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.

We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, in the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life

No rapture , not a mention of it in any of the creeds of the Christian faith

Not mentioned in the didiache
Which is an early Christian writing
Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

Creed of chaceldone
Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He was parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.

Maybe the early church fathers

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;" (First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110)

Irenaeus (AD 140-202) "he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)

Tertullian (AD 150-220) "that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, Revelation xviii and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 25)

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Cyprian (AD 200-258) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... "The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…" Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times," (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2)
Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3)

None of the early church , apostles or Paul knew what the rapture was , they would look at you blindly in ignorance , what is that as one they didn't speak Latin
To me it is dangerous because it becomes hidden knowledge


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/3/29 12:56Profile
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Joined: 2008/10/30
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 Re: The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the


"None of the early church , apostles or Paul knew what the rapture was..."

OF COURSE NOT!

BECAUSE IT IS ONE OF THOSE, "TRADITIONS OF MEN" being taught as a doctrine of the Bible by certain men. From 1909 when the CI Scofield reference Bible was published it gained notoriety and has become the view of many in numerous churches.

It's sort of like "Darwinian Evolution" being taught in the government schools today as science, when prior to The Scopes Monkey Trial of 1925 most would've agreed with the "Anti-Evolution League" of that day who fought to defend the TRUTH of "Creation" by the One True God the Creator of all things.

We ought not to marvel at these things. Truth and error have been at war even prior to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.

 2022/3/29 15:36Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
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 Re: The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the

I got a question: since the early writers did not use the word rapture to describe the second coming of Christ, will you also vehemently deny using the word Trinity because the early writers did not use that word (at least to my knowledge they didn't - this is why Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in it).

As I see it it may be a modern term coined to describe an event like the word Trinity is used to describe the godhead.

My thoughts/question.

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2022/3/31 13:42Profile
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 Re:

Brothers & Sisters,

Please allow me to preface my comments: I earned enough credits to minor in theology at a major Catholic university. There were plenty of opportunities to draw closer to the LORD but I resisted. I was worldly in my intellectual pursuits while turning away from a genuine spiritual journey to seek the LORD. So with that in mind I hope we all appreciate the nature of our walk with Jesus in prayer and study of His Word. The trinity as theological construct is meant to bring clarity to our understanding of the nature of God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit as He is revealed in His Word. As Paul & the prophets asked "who has known the mind of the Lord?" so do I ask.

As for rapture, word study is important. I agree that there is a newer tradition of thinking about 1 Thess 4:17 "caught up" which appeals to members of the modern church and, consequently, there is a great deal of literature about it in these last days. Yet, the Lord asks us to be awake and ready in any season and not in the mode of directing our attention away from the gospel.

Taking these questions to the LORD in prayer is my primary approach. Reading opinions of others is always secondary.

 2022/3/31 15:37Profile
DEADn
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Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1387
Lakeland FL

 Re: The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the

Dominic

Really good post!

As one poster asked if it was essentially fair to question the notion of the rapture because it isn't found in any texts of the early church and neither is the Trinity..........but imo those words do not have to be there to prove the principle. Meaning, do we need the word 'Trinity' to show that the early church taught it? No, just realize that they taught the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all distinct Persons who make up One God.

Yet the rapture it seemingly isn't taught by the early church but mentioned in Thess. Why was it not mentioned in the early church? Who knows.

I , for one, pushed away from 'end times' stuff because I found alot of Christians using raptuer status as a reason to run and hide and yet a Christian should do the opposite.

John


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John

 2022/3/31 16:19Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2023
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

The trinity was a phrase devised by Tertullian but the concept of the trinity is in the new testament,
It is in the creeds of the early church

Here is his quote
"We worship unity in trinity, and trinity in unity; neither confounding the person nor dividing the substance." - Tertullia

I debate with Muslims regarding this subject.
All you have to define that jesus is God and the father is God and the holy spirit is God

Holy spirit is God
Acts 5
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? note

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God

Jesus is God
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God

Father as God
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ

It is so easy to see define that jesus is the Messiah (Christ) and when you have the term lord which κύριος which is the same as the word Yahweh in the old testament

Even in the greek new testament manuscripts there is something called the nomina sacra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomina_sacra?wprov=sfla1

So when ever they used the term jesus God or holy spirit
There is a special symbol that would put over the greek text

The early church used the greek term θεός to define God the father .
With the many polytheism and world of the greeks and the Olympians God on mount Olympus
They used a specific term to define themselves differently from then

Then with the monotheism of defining that jesus is God and the father is God is throughout the creeds in the new testament

Creeds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_creeds?wprov=sfla1

You have things like the son of man sayings that quotes from the book of Daniel and the I am sayings by jesus .
The new testament is littered with terms to either his deity and even jesus baptism where you have all the trinity present

Even when jesus says I am the good Shepard refering to Psalm 23 when he says the lord is my shepherd

The new testament is brimming with references to the trinity

It is not the same with the pre trib rapture

The early church struggled with different words for God when defining jesus as God and the holy spirit as God and the father with God

I could write a book on this subject


The trinity is something that should be teached as it is all through the creeds

Apostles creed
Do you believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/4/1 11:47Profile
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Posts: 2506


 Re: The Proposed Scenario

Up front, I am a post-trib believer. I also don't believe that the pre-trib teaching was any part of Jesus' or the early church's teachings, or the earlier Hebrew prophets for that matter. Many say this issue of the timing of the rapture should be left alone, because it brings controversy and division whenever it is breached. I no longer believe that either. I understand the sentiment behind that type of thinking, but it is growing increasingly critical for the church to rightly determine whether it will be here for the duration of this age or not. It needs not be avoided any longer. It needs to be addressed head on, no matter the debate it causes.

What got me thinking again about this issue again was my recent heart surgery. It was a deep and serious operation during which a heart and lung machine kept me here while the bypass repairs were being done. I'm doing fine now after this procedure. But say my heart surgeon and his assistant were Christians and I was not and a pre-trib rapture occurred during the over four hours of surgery I underwent. I would have been left high and dry to perish because, as the common pre-trib refrain goes, I had been stubborn and hadn't taken advantage of the opportunity to trust Christ and leave it all behind before things get really bad. Would that really be the fate the Lord consigned me to if a pre-trib rapture had occurred during my surgery? How many other people were undergoing surgery of some type at this same time or since then, if not Christians, would have perished because their doctors and surgeons were Christians and just happened to get raptured and vanished during this critical time? Is this scenario which accompanies the pre-trib teaching really the way it will play out for thousands end even millions of people supposedly "left behind?"

What of thousands who are supposed to be on airliners who will perish because the pilots were Christians and are now suddenly gone even as the once piloted plane now goes out of control and plummets to earth? What of non believers riding in taxis or other vehicles who will be left to the whim of uncontrollable circumstances as their vehicles are now out of control because of the drivers who have been snatched away? What of people riding trains or riding in an ambulance to a hospital and the driver vanishes suddenly in a rapture? The possibilities go on and on. How many will perish during heart surgery or the likes when this pre-trib rapture occurs? Millions and millions riding in planes and cars will crash to earth or into the side of buildings with no chance to repent. This will be on of the Lord's glorious works? I feel as if I speak as a fool even rehashing the long proposed scenario.

It needs to be avoided no longer even if it brings division. It has to be looked at for what it is. The church needs to get its vision and calling sure before its eyes. Where does it say a believer will lose any reward if they perish during the final tribulation? Is God going to snatch His church away and kill millions and millions while doing so? Besides placing faith in Christ and being taught sound doctrine, nothing is more vital today than getting this issue correct which hasn't happened so far. It would bring spiritual health and clear vision to the church as never before.

"...this view clearly opposes the "pre-tribulation" rapture mentality, a mentality that sees the Church as being removed before the tribulation. Nothing, in our opinion, has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship, maturity and of being the Church that can stand in the Last Days and overcome tribulation, than the misguided confidence that they will not have to face it!" (Art Katz)






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David Winter

 2022/4/6 16:12Profile
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 Re:

Hey David- glad to hear you are doing well post surgery.

Won’t the same thing happen regardless of which rapture point you believe? Planes will still be flying, cars will be driven, surgeries will be done.

I guess I am not quite sure what you are saying but I may be missing a piece of the puzzle.


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Todd

 2022/4/6 16:23Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2075


 Re:

Hi Docs
I believe in the Rapture of the Church.
TMK has made a very good point:that this would be true of a rapture or a ressurection,post or pre.
Let me make another point
The idea that the rapture is instantaneous is totally incorrect ,it comes from reading the passage incorrectly and from not understanding that their is a process involved in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The fact that the rapture or ressurection is not instantaneous means that nobody dies when the "Christian Pilots are taken" and planes dont fall out of the sky.
So going back to TMK's point no matter whether you are pre or post nobody dies or is injured from the rapture .


Your Qoute?
"What of thousands who are supposed to be on airliners who will perish because the pilots were Christians and are now suddenly gone even as the once piloted plane now goes out of control and plummets to earth? What of non believers riding in taxis or other vehicles who will be left to the whim of uncontrollable circumstances as their vehicles are now out of control because of the drivers who have been snatched away? What of people riding trains or riding in an ambulance to a hospital and the driver vanishes suddenly in a rapture?"

 2022/4/6 18:27Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2023
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

1595 F. Sabie Fissher-mans Tale sig. Cv, Priams famous towne, Nere bought so deare the rapture of faire Hellen.
1600 T. Dekker Old Fortunatus sig. H4v, That feare, Which her late violent rapture cast vpon her.
1612 Life & Death Lewis Gaufredy sig. C1, Great bitternes and affliction, as hers was after the rapture of her childe.
?1615 G. Chapman tr. Homer Odysses (new ed.) xx. 485 My women servants dragg'd about my house To lust and rapture
1632 G. Sandys tr. Ovid Metamorphosis (new ed.) v. 171 Lo, I the man, that will vpon thy life Reuenge, said he, the rapture of my wife.

Other uses of the word rapture

Rapture etymology
rapture (n.)
c. 1600, "act of carrying off" as prey or plunder, from rapt + -ure, or else from French rapture, from Medieval Latin raptura "seizure, rape, kidnapping," from Latin raptus "a carrying off, abduction, snatching away; rape" (see rapt). The earliest attested use in English is with women as objects and in 17c. it sometimes meant rape (v.), which word is a cognate of this one.

1 Thess 4 in Latin
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

The word rapture is not in 1 Thess 4 it is a Latin word from tthe 16th century

Note it is not a English word rapture it is a Latin word

In 1 Thess 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. note

In 1 Thess 4 it says we will meet the lord in the air. ἀέρα
Is the greek and it says the lord will descend in the passage it does not say the timing and you cannot determine that this happens at the beginning of the tribulation.


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/4/8 14:58Profile





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