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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The similarities between the time of Jeremiah and now

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brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2131


 Re:

Brother. Or are you saying that God can make threatening prophecies through the gift of prophecy all through a profit and then he can change his mind whenever he wants like his did in those examples. Do you mean it's ok for him to do that now as well?

 2022/5/2 1:00Profile
Platy
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Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 272


 Re:

There are no more apostles and prophets. Those positions (offices) have ceased.

Ephesians 2:20 - And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;

You don't lay a foundation over and over only once. I believe there are individuals/ministries who may be prophetic like such as Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill, Keith Daniel, and David Wilkerson. You can also add in someone like John MacArthur as he has had a great track record of calling things out early on which he ended up being correct. As far as apostles go the closest thing to an apostle now are missionaries and church planters.

 2022/5/2 4:50Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2131


 Re:

I understand that platy is a common view among cessationists, who also say the gifts of the Holy spirit have ceased, but Jesus never said that they cease and neither did any of the apostles doctrines teach anywhere in the scripture that they have cease. Actually the verse that you just quoted out of Ephesians says the opposite it actualy says he's given those 5 ministries to the church he didn't take any of those ministries away from the church. And if we pluck that one verse that you quoted brother out of the context and then say that that verse means that those ministries have stopped then what you've just suggested is that Jesus Christ's ministry stopped as well that we no longer have Jesus Christs ministery or we no longer have the apostles ministry we no longer have the prophets ministry you can't have it both ways brother either the three ministries have stoped the apostle the prophet Jesus Christ or none of them have stopped. Be blessed in your pursuit of God brother I'm not about to debate those sort of things with people who I probably have made up their mind already. 🙏👍🔥

 2022/5/2 5:08Profile
Platy
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Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 272


 Re:

I'm a office cessationist not a full cessationist.

One of the marks of a true apostle is severe suffering:

1 Corinthians 4:8-13 - 8Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. 9For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 10We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. 11Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 12And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 13Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

2 Corinthians 11: 12-33 - 12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 16I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 17That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 18Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face. 21I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. 22Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? 30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. 31The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. 32In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me: 33And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

brothagary would you be able to name an apostle alive today that have the above qualifications of severe suffering? The burden is on you to show proof. Again the closest would be missionaries who go out into untouched places and lay out the foundation for the gospel in such places and therefore have to bear the majority of the suffering/workload.

 2022/5/2 5:27Profile
Platy
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Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 272


 Re: brothagary

You wrote:

"And if we pluck that one verse that you quoted brother out of the context and then say that that verse means that those ministries have stopped then what you've just suggested is that Jesus Christ's ministry stopped as well that we no longer have Jesus Christs ministery or we no longer have the apostles ministry we no longer have the prophets ministry you can't have it both ways brother"

Why would I not be able to have it both ways? I mentioned there are prophetic like ministries (warning and calling for repentance) and there are missionaries who are similar to apostles. The office/position has ceased.

How many times do you lay a foundation brothagary?

 2022/5/2 5:44Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2131


 Re:

lol Brother stop, now I'm going against my word about debating lol.... The first thing to note brother is none of the other apostles had suffered as much as paul according to him. And every apostle including paul received the calling and mantel of the apostle before they suffered anything. IT took time for suffering to come, as it will more then likley in the west So suffering doesn't need to be as extreme as pauls suffering and it doesn't have a time frame on when physical persecution and suffering will start during one's ministry or calling, that is abundantly clear in scriture. And in the case of western apostles who have lived in nonviolence towards Christians, in a general context., the level of physical persecution would be very low regardless of what ministry calling you have. Most Christians in the roman empire eventually suffered some sort of persecution . Anyone that tried to live a godly life over there according to Paul would suffer some sort of persecution . Not so in the west. But verbal attacks and insults and slander is common among those here in the west from pagans and religious zealots who actually have hate and much bitterness towards The prophetic and apostolic calling. Only recently one from Newzealand was incarcerated for about a month for resisting the government unlawfull mandates against the gosple.

 2022/5/2 6:05Profile
Platy
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Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 272


 Re: brothagary

People who don't allow themselves to be challenged (or hear contrasting viewpoints) usually end up in cults/bad movements. Not a safe mindset to have.

But they (so called apostles) live comfortable lives and the majority of them preach prosperity just as Paul contrasted in those passages the marks of a true apostle vs a false apostle.

As for the passage in Ephesians you mentioned here are the verses:

Ephesians 2: 19-22 - 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Who are the "ye" in the above passages? Because the "ye" are built on the foundation and they are not the foundation.

 2022/5/2 6:15Profile
Platy
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Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 272


 Re: brothagary

Another set of verses:

1 Corinthians 3:6-9 - 5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Paul planted (just like a missionary would). You used the term "western apostles". The west has already had the gospel laid down already so if we look at the "western apostles" are they building on someone else's foundation? Why not go out into unreached areas and plant there?

What else did Paul say?

Romans 15:18-20 - 18For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 19Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 20Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

Paul did not build on another man's foundation but he went to places that had not the gospel and started from scratch. Are "western apostles" working in a place where Christ has already been named or not? Questions to ponder.

 2022/5/2 6:36Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2131


 Re:

Brother iv spent over 20 years debating these subjects from the opposite position, over the years I've heard all the challenges because I was the one bringing those points up . I even spent quite a few years debating doctrines like calvinist theology arminian theology whether there apostles prophets everything you can think of I was probably debating it in here before you joined up so you got no idea really about those sort of things in my life. And one of the main things I learnt about all that was how to grieve and quench the Holy spirit through debating if you want to quench the Holy spirit learn how to judge people wrongly , and make a hobby or a trade out of debating you will Surly quench the Holy spirit. And you know what the worst part about all that is wile you doing it and the years of debating and judging christian's that i spent doing it in here and before being here when I was a moderator in another forum, you don't even realise you're deceived and you're judging people and you don't even realise that the spirit is being quench slowly you conscience becomes damaged a bit like what Paul said said with a hot iron and you actually think you're doing gods work but all you end up doing is doing damage to your own spiritual life and not helping anyone, no one seems to change their mind. That's why I make it my aim in life to not get caught up as the apostle Paul commanded us to not get caught up and fruitless discussions about genealogies Aimless dispute about doctrine the facts are if you're not in a leadership position or you don't have an anointing of a pasta or a evangelist or a teacher or apostle or prophet I'll just throw that one in to annoy your brother lol, if you're not truly one of those you've got no real authority to debate or to rebuke people it always backfires but the sad part about it is many people find that out when it's too late and there's a few key things that people need to do to restore themselves, back into the place of being on fire and filled with the Holy spirit daily and not that be just a theory, but a true reality. So that is all I really care about when it comes to other Christians and myself is that I care whether they are tormented and weather they really know the peace that passes all understanding and whether they have really experience the joy that is unspeakable I want them to have that cause I know what it's like to have it then to lose it and then to get it back and then have it and keep it and it's a treasure that I will never give up for the sake of foolish conversations about doctrines that don't amount to Holy living and don't amount to deep repentance and a deeper connection with God. That's all I care about so brother I'm not gonna continue to talk about this subject I've spent over 27 years which is not very long but it's quite a few years studying the scripture and meditating on the truth and I flipped and had complete U-turn with my own theology taking on the calvinistic theology and then rejecting it, and being completely against the doctrines that there still are apostles today and prophets, too now accepting it. It would be impossible for you to just cut n copy scriptures from the apostles to think that I'm going to somehow change my mind I've meditated on those scriptures somedays up to 6 hours a day, day in day out and it's because of that that I believe what I believe. So god bless you platy I pray and hope you find what it is that you looking for in your journey, 😊🙏🔥

 2022/5/2 6:46Profile
Platy
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Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 272


 Re:

Your avoiding what I presented to you and also the problem is that you have been debating this whole time. Once you are challenged then it becomes a debate. That is not being honest sir.

 2022/5/2 6:56Profile





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