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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Biblical Errors about the marriage supper of the lamb& the only 2 references to it in the scripture

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deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Biblical Errors about the marriage supper of the lamb& the only 2 references to it in the scripture

I was always taught that the marriage supper of the lamb was in heaven and as I was taught pre-trib rapture theology

I want to dispel this with actual scripture

Revelation 19:9
Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

The context of the passage in interesting as it actually mentions supper elsewhere in this passage

Note the context of the passage

Revelation 19
New King James Version
Heaven Exults over Babylon

19 After these things I [a]heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to [b]the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both[c] small and great!”

6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the[d] Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Christ on a White Horse

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
The Beast and His Armies Defeated

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [h]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, [i]free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


I want to note this is not at jesus secret return in the pre trib coming , it does not mention that we go up to heaven and have the marriage supper of the lamb

This is at Jesus second coming.

The word supper is used in verse

Revelation 19:17
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [h]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, [i]free and slave, both small and great.”

Note the word supper is used here

The idea that there is a great banquet as the term marriage supper of the lamb is used in the passage and then supper in verse 17 noting that both is referring to the same thing.

Not we are not cannibals I think this is not taken literally

To me this is battle terminology, note where this is at this is not heaven this is on earth at the battle of Armgeddon.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22flesh+of%22&resultspp=250&version=NKJV

It can mean literally eating the flesh in the scriptures

The evidence that we are eating in Heaven during the seven year tribulation is not in scripture but the only verse refers to it on earth!!!!!!

It gets me so sick that so many things we believe are not backed up with the evidence of scripture but is a lie that is past around the church without any founding for it the bible.

What annoys me is there is so much bible prophecy that does not actually involve the bible and it is a counterfeit.

People look at the bible and actually do not read the verse.
It is similar but the actual bible verse and the context.

This is why you have to scrutize the scriptures


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/1/7 12:46Profile
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
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 Re: Biblical Errors about the marriage supper of the lamb& the only 2 references to i

Domonic: You have gone deeper with the study than I ever have for sure. Thanks for the hard work there.

One thing that comes out of both your posts, at least to me, is this. Every one of us reads scripture with a bias. This bias is usually emotional. What I mean by this is that we have had favorite teachers and attachments to denominations that have shaped how we see scripture when we read it.

Paul dealt with this in 1 Cor.. He said that our carnality is revealed when we begin to align ourselves with Paul, Apollos, Peter, or even simply say, "I am of Christ."

But what would happen if we were to read scripture with a fresh set of eyes. What if we said, "God, I am going to set aside any preconceptions that I may have ingrained in me and simply seek you as I study your word."

To be honest, I have had this very thing (preconceptions based upon man and not upon God) revealed in my life over and over again by the Holy Spirit, and each time I faced a choice. Do I continue to see it the way I see it, or do I submit to the Holy Spirit and allow Him to transform what I know about scripture. Again and again I meet men who have done the same and we agree about 99% of the time in areas where we know we received our revelation (our understanding) from the Spirit.

I don't think eschatological arguments ever really get anyone anywhere, but I have to say I agree with you. I really don't see a separate rapture. Only a second coming.

But what is more important is how we approach scripture. We must be open to allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us instead of stubbornly holding onto what we have always been taught.


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Travis

 2022/1/7 13:21Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

That's what I would like if for people to read the bible and to actually have biblical evidence for what they believe and to come with new eyes with the scripture

I believe in eternal and torment hell from scriptural evidence

Our doctrines shouldnt be based on the bible on feelings

I try with every point I try to justify it by scripture

My problem I need jesus as I am a mess

I have heard things like 1/3 of the bible is bible prophecy but most people haven't gone through the bible with a fine tooth coomb

I need jesus presence

I should believe the bible even if do not like it
If the bible was written by men

We should come when listening to preachers look up every verse and look up every greek and Hebrew word a teacher uses

We should be both on our knees and in study

I am a mess , I always like Daniel Wallace statement that one ounce of evidence puts to fire mountains worth of scholarly books

There is so much in the church that people think is in the scripture but not

Thanks for your comment


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/1/7 13:38Profile
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Posts: 6650
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 Re:

That’s going to be one long table.

ADD: assuming 1 billion at the table, you’d need a rectangle table (seating on both sides) is 189,394 miles long. (That’s allowing 24” between seats- the recommended comfortable spacing.

For comparison, the earth is 24,901 miles in circumference so we are talking about a table that goes around the earth 7.6 times.


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Todd

 2022/1/7 13:43Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
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Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

That's what I was trying to dissuade from was assumptions

Sources are required


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Dominic Shiells

 2022/1/7 14:26Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
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 Re: Biblical Errors about the marriage supper of the lamb& the only 2 references to i

Hi Dom, thanks for bringing these scriptures to our attention and for your careful study of God's Word.

I haven't really considered the location of the marriage supper, honestly the supper seems figurative to me. my focus when reading this passage has been v.7 ,

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

After the judgment of the great whore and the overthrow of idolatry and superstition, the true church will triumph and rejoice in complete and perfect union with her glorious Lord. Until then we must make ourselves ready. We know the blood of Christ cleanses us of sin but there is another side where we cleanse ourselves. Those who have hope in His appearing and are called to this supper will do this; see 1John 3:3 ; 2Corinthians 7:1 ; 2Timothy 2:20-21.

In Christ,


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Ron Halverson

 2022/1/7 15:23Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
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 Re:

//honestly the supper seems figurative to me.//

Indeed.


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Todd

 2022/1/7 15:30Profile
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 Re: Biblical Errors about the marriage supper of the lamb& the only 2 references to i

The simple reading of Rev 19 passages about supper renders a supper of the lamb for saints and a supper for the fowls of the air on the warriors of Armageddon. The two must not be confused. If God can turn carnivors like lions into herbivours in the millinium, than why could he not turn birds into carnivors?

Also, the resurrection of the dead and rapture of the the still alive in Christ will take place at the last trump according to 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. We will meet him half way in the air to come down to earth.

The difficulty with Revelation is that there are many layers of time and realms of heaven, earth, hell, below earth, abyss, bottomless pit, lake of fire and so on. John recalls a revelation about the present - 7 churches and then makes a big jump into the future. He alternates between the spiritual realm and the geographical realm of the isle of Patmos. Then there are scenes in heaven and things happening on earth. Then themes and references to the Old testament like the Song of Moses, Sodom and Egypt, Babylon, which sometimes should be taken literal and other times figuratively.
Also John seems to directly address the reader of this book from time to time, with words like "he who has an ear, let him hear" and Revelation 22:11, Revelation 1:3.

Have you ever wondered why God did not employ someone like Luke to give a precise, chronologic account of the end times, like he wrote Acts?

I believe God deliberately shrouded this book in mystery. We see it in the book with the seals that only the Lamb could open or the seven thunders, that were not to be recorded.

It is a revelation. A revelation must be received by God, and must needs be interpreted by the Holy Spirit. It was the same with the Messiah. There were many passages in the OT, that we can decipher in retrospect, but none of the scribes and pharisees could. Mind you, I once met a bunch of Hassidic scholars, they study the Torah for 17 hours every day in the original language and I confronted them with the obvious passages about the Messiah and they just did not get it.

Jesus triumphed in the Spirit crying:

Matthew 11:25 I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes!

I have heard teachings about revelation from doctors of theology that were well researched but dry as the desert and with nil annointing, but folks were impressed.

Revelation can only be understood by Daniels and Johns who both study the scriputures and walk closely with the Lord.

As for me, pretrib, postrib, marriage supper, rapture are secondary. We can be certain that there will be much suffering, persecution and deception preceding the resurection and his 2nd coming. Better a pretriber or amillenialist who loves Jesus and keeps close to Him than someone who has it all worked out and misses heaven because he shows no fruit of the spirit and no good works garnishing his professed faith.

That does by no means mean that we are free to neglect the study of scripture.

If you want to understand revelation, here is the key

Psalm 25:14
The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

My 2 € cents.




 2022/1/11 17:01Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
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 Re:

Have you ever had a vivid dream and try to write it down in a manner that makes sense? It is very difficult because even vivid dreams often don’t make a lot of sense. For example, I had a very vivid dream once that Mr Brady from the Brady Bunch was my high jump coach. I have never high jumped and I hadn’t seen the Brady Bunch in a very long time. But the weirdest part is that I woke up and was telling people about this dream— then I woke up for real.

John was trying to write down a vision he had, much of he could not understand and the imagery he had was very strange and perhaps undescribable, but he did his best. Much if not all of the book is directed to specific real churches of his day undergoing severe persecution. Parts of the book says things will happen “soon.”

What we are doing, then, when we read Revelation, is trying to interpret someone else’s interpretation of their vision. We are one step removed. It would be like someone interpreting my account of my high jump dream.

Something is bound to get lost in the translation.


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Todd

 2022/1/12 8:39Profile
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Joined: 2003/11/23
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 Re:

Hi narrowpath,

Quote:

As for me, pretrib, postrib, marriage supper, rapture are secondary. We can be certain that there will be much suffering, persecution and deception preceding the resurection and his 2nd coming. Better a pretriber or amillenialist who loves Jesus and keeps close to Him than someone who has it all worked out and misses heaven because he shows no fruit of the spirit and no good works garnishing his professed faith.

That does by no means mean that we are free to neglect the study of scripture.

If you want to understand revelation, here is the key

Psalm 25:14
The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.


I think that you've brought up something quite important. My wife and I recently finished another journey through the Word of God. As usual, there were plenty of questions over the Book of Revelation.

I brought up something similar to what you wrote. I pointed out that people in the days of the apostles (and many centuries following) didn't have the luxury of owning copies of the Bible (or even the individual books of the Bible). They didn't have concordances, Bible dictionaries, books on eschatology, the BlueLetterBible app, etc. Most didn't have access to "paper" (or its equivalent) either. All they had was Jesus.

There is a Tarahumara village in Mexico that I used to travel to with a missionary. It was deep within the Sierra Madre Occidental. At one point, there were people living there who didn't even know that they were living in a country called "Mexico" (let alone any other nations). It was a long journey in which we used to travel on 4x4s via trails rather than roads.

In that village, there was no electricity. There was no running water (until we dug a well). Many people actually live in caves. Others live in small log huts. The concepts of most modern technology and even conveniences (like books) is inexplicable to them. The tribe (until much more recently) didn't even have a written language (for their language was completely verbal). At the time, nearly everyone there only spoke Tarahumara. The primary religion is animism (when they are as untouched by outsiders as this village).

There were no believers (at least that we are anyone else knew of) in that village a few decades ago. Now, there was a vibrant church. Their meetings were either held in someone's dwelling (i.e., cave or hut) or, most often, outdoors beneath a particular tree. So, we built a building for them.

A few years later, during a subsequent visit to their village, we learned that they had been experiencing a major drought. The creek that ran through the mountain village had dried up. It was a difficult time for which we worked to help find solutions.

I'll never forget what one of the women said in her language: "All we have is Jesus. We have nothing else."

The point is that they didn't have any of the things that we take for granted. When those believers meet together (often persecuted by others in the tribe), they worship the Lord and share his word (often from memory). They simply have their love for Jesus.

They didn't concern themselves with the manner by which the Lord will return. They didn't concern themselves with the politics or other affairs of this world. They simply sought to know the Lord and live their lives for Him. They wanted to show their faith by the fruit of the Spirit. It is a simple and pure faith...and one that I always rejoiced in.

Sometimes, I think of how we so often chase after discernment in many of these matters. Like you said, we shouldn't neglect study of Scripture. At the same time, there are things that we might not know until the right time.

Many people have died while waiting for the end of the ages and the return of our Lord. For them, eternity came "earlier" and in a different manner than they might have anticipated. The point is that we simply need to be waiting and longing for Him no matter what.

Like you said, we should not neglect the Scriptures. It is a wonderful thing -- perhaps a "talent" given to us by the Lord for such a time as this. As such, we should "study to show ourselves approved."

This doesn't mean that we will understand the exact timing and nature of the Lord's return and the answers to all of those questions that we might have about the Revelation of Jesus Christ written down by John. It just means that we should maintain that heartfelt cry, "Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20).

Thank you for sharing, brother.


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Christopher

 2022/1/12 12:15Profile





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