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deogloria
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Joined: 2020/2/12
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 Re:

I have just deleted my previous post
Sorry if I caused some confusion
Blessings to all.

David let us know when you have your operation so we can all pray for you

 2022/1/22 12:12Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
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 Re:

I'll delete mine also.

On Jan 26, I start taking a specialty medicine to raise my platelet level. I will take it for 5 days and if it works, they will "fix" me on Feb 7 in Fargo. The heart center in Fargo has a highly spoken of reputation in the medical world. Thanks for any and all prayers.


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David Winter

 2022/1/22 13:08Profile
narrowpath
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 Re:


[David Pawson said:


Quote:
I want to say, to put it very simply, that Augustine more than anybody else recast the Christian faith in a Greek framework and has influenced the entire church ever since.
--- De-Greecing the Church Part 1 (around 1:06:18)]

This is so true. Augustine was very much influenced by Greek philosophy. In mainstream Greek philosophy the metaphysical and spritual realm is seen as superior to the physical. During the Renaissance period, Greek philosphy had a revival and influenced the Reformers to a much greater degree than many would admit. Calvin was a student of Augustine, Plato and Aristoteles and borrowed heavily from them. This lead him to present salvation as a static concept rather than a person to surrender to. Ironically, Augustine was also one of the main figures that shaped the Catholic church, which is also a system.

Hebrew thought does not divide these realms but sees spirit, soul and body as a unit.



[Augustine was the champion of the doctrine of eternal torment. So we should discard this doctrine also.]

I agree with you to disregard him, but for different reasons.
Universal reconciliation which is not what the bible teaches, but we had discussed that before in lenght and breadth.

 2022/1/22 14:57Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
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 Re:


At least we know how the doctrine of eternal torment has become so widespread and so deeply entrenched in Christian teaching.

Quote:
Universal reconciliation which is not what the bible teaches, but we had discussed that before in lenght and breadth.



How very far have Christian hearts fallen short of the length and breadth and depth and height of the love of God that passes knowledge.


Anyway, you said:

Quote:
Hebrew thought does not divide these realms but sees spirit, soul and body as a unit.



This is what David Pawson said in his message:

Quote:
But it is a Greek idea that I have a soul in a body. When God breathed into the body of dust that he had made, the body of clay, He breathed into the dust and Adam became a living soul. And people think that means that God put a soul into the clay. No. It says, “The clay became a living soul.” That phrase “a living soul” may be found in Genesis 1 applied to animals. The same phrase. Animals are living souls because in Hebrew thinking, a soul is a living body. It is not something distinct from the body; it is a live body, a living breathing body…………… But the idea that we are made up of two parts, the body of which has little value, and the soul which has real value, has led to Christians talking about saving souls when we are really called to save whole people, to save the living bodies as well………………Lets take a Christian song which is thoroughly Greek: “John Brown’s body lies a-moldering in the grave……and his soul goes marching on.” That is not what Christians believe. That is what Greeks believe.
--- De-Greecing the Church Part 1, from around 22:12



If human beings are living souls and animals are also living souls, then are human beings no different from animals?

When John Brown’s physical body returns to dust in the grave, does John Brown totally ceases to exist? That is, he becomes just like he was never born?


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Jade

 2022/1/23 1:51Profile
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 Re: The Hebrew, the Greek and the Heavenly...and lions and tigers and bears...




David now knows all of his errors. Not only those from the sermon which have been mentioned in this thread.

He knows each and every one from the beginning of his life to the end.

But it is necessary and helpful for us to be made aware of these particular errors from this one sermon of his.

Thanks BranchinVine

 2022/1/23 19:56Profile
BranchinVINE
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 Re:


I am just posting to give my views regarding some of the things that David Pawson said in his message.

I am not judging David Pawson or attacking him personally.



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Jade

 2022/1/23 23:29Profile
BranchinVINE
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 THE LIVING SOUL: COMPRISING BODY, SOUL & SPIRIT


ARTICLE BY ANDREW MURRAY:

“God is a Spirit; and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” --- JOHN 4:24

When God created man, and breathed into him of His own spirit, man became a living soul. The soul stood midway between the spirit and the body, and had either to yield to the spirit to be lifted up to God, or to the flesh and its lusts. In the Fall, man refused to listen to the spirit, and became a slave of the body. The spirit in man became utterly darkened.

In regeneration it is this spirit that is quickened and born again from above. In the regenerate life and in the fellowship of God it is the spirit of man that has ever to yield itself to the Spirit of God. The spirit is the deepest, inward part of the human being. As we read in Ps. 51:6: “Thou desirest truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part Thou shalt make me know wisdom”; or in Jer. 31:33: I will put My law in their inward parts.” It is of this also that Isaiah says: “With my soul have I desired Thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek Thee early” (Isa. 26:9). The soul must sink down to the depths of the hidden spirit, and call upon that to stir itself to seek God.

God is a Spirit, most holy and most glorious. He gives us the spirit with the one object of holding fellowship with Himself. Through sin that power has been darkened and well-nigh quenched. There is no way for its restoration but by presenting the soul in stillness before God for the working of His Holy Spirit in our spirit. Deeper than our thoughts and feelings, God will in our inward part, in our spirits within us, teach us to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

“The Father seeketh such to worship Him.” He Himself by His Holy Spirit will teach us this if we wait upon Him. In the quiet hour, be still before God, and yield yourself with the whole heart to believe in and to receive the gentle working of His Spirit. And breathe out such words as these:

“My soul, be thou silent unto God.”

“With my soul I have desired Thee in the night, yea, with my spirit within me I seek Thee early” (Isa. 26:9).

“On Thee, O God, do I wait” (Ps. 25:5).


----- Taken from “The Secret of Adoration” by Andrew Murray, 1914.



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Jade

 2022/2/5 7:46Profile
BranchinVINE
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 THE LIVING SOUL: COMPRISING BODY, SOUL & SPIRIT



ARTICLE BY T. AUSTIN-SPARKS:

The Creation Formula (Genesis 2:7)

In taking up the statement as to man's constitution in Genesis 2:7, we would recall you to what has been said about the progressiveness of revelation. For here we have a precise instance of things being but in germ form in the first reference, needing the reflex of the later and fuller light. We would not say that this passage is a positive assertion, but more an implication. Later Scriptures bear out the implication. It will be noticed that we are not dealing with the account of man in Genesis 1:26, which rather describes God's intention for him than what actually is the case; that is, his place and office more than his being. Here is Genesis 2:7:

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of lives;* and man became a living soul".

*FOOTNOTE: The word here is in the plural. We do not propose to enter upon a discussion or enquiry as to the meaning of this and so add considerably to detail, but merely point this out for the present.

On the face of it, the statement appears to contradict all that we are saying, and to support the contention that man is dual or bipartite.

If we pass over to Paul's exact quotation of this passage in 1 Corinthians 15:45, we find that it is used to describe a difference between the first Adam and the last Adam. The former was made "a living soul", the latter "a life-giving spirit". This will help us. But first let us note the synthesis. There are three things:
(1) The material elements: "the dust of the ground".
(2) The formative factor: "the breath of lives".
(3) The final issue: "man became a living soul".

We need not discuss the first; most people will accept the material side of man's being. 'Adam', from adamah, means 'of the earth'. (It also includes a colour element: red earth.)

The second point brings us immediately to our present object. Here we have two sides or aspects.
(a) "The Lord God"—the One Who effects.
(b) "The breath of lives"—the means He uses.

Creation and emanation are not to be confused. When the animal part of man is in view there is nothing said which would support the idea that there is a oneness of nature between the created and the Creator. But when we are considering that part of man's being in which he is the image and likeness of God, we have a higher nature, and this is communicated, not created; the method is different. The spirit of man is not an act of creation, but rather in the nature of procreation. This breath of lives is not man's soul, but his spirit. We shall see later that this is not merely the abstract animating element which marks the difference between man as a living organism and inanimate matter, but something which, being out from God, is an organ, or faculty, as well as a function. From the general teaching of Scripture we conclude that it was the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of life, who breathed into man, and by this breathing not only made him animate, i.e. put the body-soul, physio-psychical life, into him, but formed the link with God, for ultimate Divine purposes.

Quote:
When the animal part of man is in view there is nothing said which would support the idea that there is a oneness of nature between the created and the Creator. But when we are considering that part of man's being in which he is the image and likeness of God, we have a higher nature, and this is communicated, not created; the method is different. The spirit of man is not an act of creation, but rather in the nature of procreation. This breath of lives is not man's soul, but his spirit.



In Zechariah 12:1, we have the phrase "...the Lord... formeth the spirit of man within him". The word "formeth" is the Hebrew word yatsar, which means 'to mould into form'. God formed man's body out of the dust of the ground. He also formed man's spirit within him. (There must have been a 'him' there first.) Along with this must go the words of Hebrews 12:9, "The Father of our spirits". It is here that we are the offspring of God.

Quote:
In Zechariah 12:1, we have the phrase "...the Lord... formeth the spirit of man within him". The word "formeth" is the Hebrew word yatsar, which means 'to mould into form'. God formed man's body out of the dust of the ground. He also formed man's spirit within him. (There must have been a 'him' there first.) Along with this must go the words of Hebrews 12:9, "The Father of our spirits". It is here that we are the offspring of God.



We must remember that the pneuma, or spirit, is vested with the powers of a definite and independent entity. Look at the following instances.
"Jesus perceiving in his spirit" (Mark 2:8).
"He sighed deeply in his spirit" (Mark 8:12).
"My spirit hath rejoiced" (Luke 1:47).
"Jesus rejoiced in spirit" (Luke 10:21).
"...worship the Father in spirit (John 4:23).
"He groaned in the spirit" (John 11:33).
"Troubled in the spirit" (John 13:21).
"Paul was pressed in the spirit" (Acts 18:5).
"Whom I serve in my spirit" (Rom 1:9).
"Serve in newness of the spirit" (Rom 7:6).
"The spirit of the man which is in him" (1 Cor 2:11).
"Absent in body, present in spirit" (1 Cor 5:3).
"That the Spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor 5:5).
"My spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful" (1 Cor 14:14).
"I will pray with the spirit" (1 Cor 14:15).
"The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" (1 Cor 14:32).
"...spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:23).

There are those who contend that spirit, or pneuma, is just the life of the soul and body, the animating factor. We are aware that 'breath', 'wind', etc., are sometimes used of the same original word as 'spirit', but so they are of 'soul'. The usage in that case is because of the invisible power and action which is represented. No one will substitute 'wind' or 'breath' for any of the above usages of 'spirit'; it would at once be meaningless and absurd.

The relationship between soul and body is one which is well beyond our power to explain. The Bible makes many definite statements on the matter, but never explains it. For instance, soul and life are often interchangeable terms, and these are repeatedly said to be in the blood. "The life is in the blood... The blood... is... the life thereof" (Lev 17:11,14). Science has not helped us at all to understand this, but, of course, the fact is irrefutable. One thing is established—that while life properties and qualities are in the blood, after a given time they cease to be there, although the blood may still be retained. But, when we come to the matter of soul and spirit, not only are two so distinctly different words used, but these are said to be separable without either perishing, and each is vested with its own responsibility, set of faculties and destiny.

At least by inference, as the marrow is deeper than the joints, the spirit is more inward than the soul (Heb 4:12). As it is easier to reach the bone through the body, or flesh, so it is easier to reach the soul through the body than it is to reach the spirit through the soul. Much soul-piercing and cleaving has to be done before the spirit is really reached and dealt with. In other words, the physical senses are an easy way to the soul, but it requires the mighty energy of the Spirit of God to reach the spirit. But note, the difference between soul and spirit is only made manifest when the Word of God is driven in by the Holy Spirit's energy and might.

But, to touch definitely on point three,—"man became a living soul". First, the animal being out of the dust; then the spiritual life by the breath of God; and then the soul is mentioned. What did man become? "A living soul". Was that all? If that were all then what of the body? But this "living soul" has a body. Is that all? No! This living soul with a body has a spirit. This phrase, "living soul", well sets forth the nature of man's soul as in that first order as midway between matter and spirit; "lower than the angels" (pure spirits), higher than the brute. The quotation in 1 Corinthians 15:45 we said would help us. It does, in two ways. "The first man Adam became a living soul". The original of the last four words is egeneto EIS psuchen zosan. The eis is interesting; it is local, and implies that the soul is the meeting place of two opposite natures, the body and the spirit. The added clauses in Paul's statement make it clear, or strengthen the conclusion, that in the first Adam the soul is the terminus of body and spirit. The statement helps us in a second way by showing that in the last Adam the spirit is the terminus, or governing factor. Thus the soul is the nexus between the higher and the lower natures, not merely the difference between physical and metaphysical; it is the ego.

Quote:
But, to touch definitely on point three,—"man became a living soul". First, the animal being out of the dust; then the spiritual life by the breath of God; and then the soul is mentioned. What did man become? "A living soul". Was that all? If that were all then what of the body? But this "living soul" has a body. Is that all? No! This living soul with a body has a spirit. This phrase, "living soul", well sets forth the nature of man's soul as in that first order as midway between matter and spirit; "lower than the angels" (pure spirits), higher than the brute. The quotation in 1 Corinthians 15:45 we said would help us. It does, in two ways. "The first man Adam became a living soul". The original of the last four words is egeneto EIS psuchen zosan. The eis is interesting; it is local, and implies that the soul is the meeting place of two opposite natures, the body and the spirit. The added clauses in Paul's statement make it clear, or strengthen the conclusion, that in the first Adam the soul is the terminus of body and spirit. The statement helps us in a second way by showing that in the last Adam the spirit is the terminus, or governing factor. Thus the soul is the nexus between the higher and the lower natures, not merely the difference between physical and metaphysical; it is the ego.



Nothing that is said in this book is intended to infer that soul, as such, is a wrong thing, i.e. that it is wrong for man to have a soul, and that therefore it has to be destroyed. What we are saying is that the soul of man has become poisoned with a self-directive interest, and has become allied with the powers which are opposed to God. This is not known, nor imagined, to be so until a real awakening has taken place in the spirit. It is therefore wrong to live wholly or pre-eminently on the soul side of our being—now. The truly spiritual people will find their chief enemy in their own souls, and God finds His chief enemy in the soul of man. When the spirit is renewed, and Christ dwells and reigns within—in other words, when we are "filled with the Spirit"—then the soul can come to serve the Lord as a handmaiden of the spirit to real but governed usefulness.

So man awoke—so to speak—"a living soul". He came to a threefold consciousness; a world—or sense—consciousness through his psycho-physical body; a self-consciousness in his soul; and a God-consciousness by his—what? Does man arrive at the knowledge of God as a Person, a living Person, by his reason, feeling and volition? The Word of God denies this, and, in the matter of living union with God as an experience, man's history denies it. "Canst thou by searching find out God?" (Job 11:7). Philosophy gives a positive answer, inasmuch as it is the most deadly thing to faith; and philosophy is an intense activity of the soul, mainly on its reasoning side. Multitudes have been lost to a true and vital Christian experience through taking up philosophy as a subject. When God had breathed into the already fashioned man, something more than body and soul was there, and it was this that determined everything in relation to God's purpose through man. The soul was the meeting place of body and spirit. Let the soul surrender to the body and all is lost. Let it surrender to the spirit and all is well.

To sum up. Man became a living soul, having a body and a spirit. By asserting himself—the ego—in favour of the body and not of the spirit, he became a sinful soul. It is what he is, not just what is in him.

He has got to be saved from himself. This is accomplished in two ways. Christ's death in its representative nature is a potent thing to be entered into by the "natural" man, so that, by a crisis and a process, the power of Christ's death is wrought and established in the soul-consciousness of man. He becomes aware that he is forbidden to live and move on the basis of the self—ego—life. On the other hand, the resurrection of Christ is also a mighty power in man's spirit, and by its introduction by the Holy Spirit into man's inner being, he is made a spiritual man, as over against a merely natural. His position henceforth is most perfectly stated by the Apostle Paul thus:

"I (the natural man) have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that (life) which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, (the faith) which is in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself up for (in place of) me"(Gal 2:20).

This is what Christ meant when in the undeveloped truth He said: "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

Quote:
The soul was the meeting place of body and spirit. Let the soul surrender to the body and all is lost. Let it surrender to the spirit and all is well.

To sum up. Man became a living soul, having a body and a spirit. By asserting himself—the ego—in favour of the body and not of the spirit, he became a sinful soul. It is what he is, not just what is in him.

He has got to be saved from himself. This is accomplished in two ways. Christ's death in its representative nature is a potent thing to be entered into by the "natural" man, so that, by a crisis and a process, the power of Christ's death is wrought and established in the soul-consciousness of man. He becomes aware that he is forbidden to live and move on the basis of the self—ego—life. On the other hand, the resurrection of Christ is also a mighty power in man's spirit, and by its introduction by the Holy Spirit into man's inner being, he is made a spiritual man, as over against a merely natural. His position henceforth is most perfectly stated by the Apostle Paul thus:

"I (the natural man) have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that (life) which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, (the faith) which is in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself up for (in place of) me"(Gal 2:20).

This is what Christ meant when in the undeveloped truth He said: "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).



----- Taken from “what is Man” by T. Austin-Sparks

http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/what_is_man.html




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Jade

 2022/2/5 7:54Profile
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Posts: 2009
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 Re: De-Greecing The Church - part 1 and 2

Wanted to thank you again for sharing these messages, there are more on the subject, if I’m not mistaken - tho in any case these sermons are a sorely needed treatment for the body of believers and like you, these sermons were as a cup of cool water to me and blessed me greatly 🙏🏻

With so much pretense and artifice in the modern world, and all it’s distracting influences, it’s very refreshing to get back to the foundation of our faith, being clear minded as to what is eternal vs external and brother Pawson does us all a solid by parsing this out, drawing clean lines of demarcation. As observed by responses in this thread, this was not a popular or easy thing to address but, I for one am grateful for both the intent and courage required to meet this head on as well as the patience to sort through it and faithfully appeal to the listeners 😇


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Fletcher

 2022/2/7 6:13Profile





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