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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But it is a version of universalism that does not deny the tortures of hell for unrepentant sinners, perhaps for eons. It just holds that ultimately even the most stubborn will repent.

So the ultimate question is whether God’s punishments are remedial or for the mere sake of punishment. It’s is hard to fathom how an eternity of torment is justified by relatively few years of sinning. Not only that, but if hell is eternal there will always be sin and sinners.


_________________
Todd



Todd: Two things here that I would like to bring forward. First, it is not about "punishment", but rather about love, righteousness and judgement. All men have ample opportunity to live in intimacy with God, surrendered to Him and enjoying eternal life. This is what Paul lays out in the first three chapters of Romans.

Second, there are a number of people, me included, who do not believe that Hell is eternal torment for those who choose to go there, but rather destruction. Just as strong a case can be made scripturally for this as for eternal torment.

Just a couple observations.


_________________
Travis

 2021/11/29 18:38Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Let me add one more item to the my last post. If a man entered your home and murdered your wife and children, and if the police and the judge knew full well with irrefutable evidence that this man did so intentionally and with malice, we would say that system was corrupt and evil that would allow this man to walk away without prosecution and judgement. If they said in replay that they were only loving the criminal, we would say their love was corrupt and twisted, would we not? Just a thought. Love cannot be separated from justice, nor justice from love.


_________________
Travis

 2021/11/29 18:43Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:


Travis,

3 Questions:

(1)
Is it just that any descendant of fallen Adam should be eternally condemned because he cannot separate himself from the evil nature that he inherited from Adam that makes him a slave to sin and evil? No one has chosen to be born a sinner and every sinner sins because that is his birth nature. Is it fair?

(2)
Has Christ already paid the penalty of sin for ALL sinners (i.e., EVERY descendant of fallen Adam) or only for some?

(3)
If eternal LIFE is a GIFT of God (Rom. 6:23), does anyone need to do anything to earn it?

Rom. 11:35-36 –
Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things,
to whom be glory forever. Amen.


_________________
Jade

 2021/11/29 19:48Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Travis-

I agree with you in your position regarding the final date of the wicked. But I have sympathy toward Universal Reconciliation. It too has strong scriptural support, much more so than most are willing to consider.

But I disagree with you in regard to punishment. If eternal torment is true it has everything to do with punishment. God will punish the wicked for a quadrillion years for their crimes and then He is only getting started. Those who believe in eternal torment believe that it is necessary due to God’s wrath against sinners.

If true, isn’t it very sad that God will always be burning with anger and He will never get what He wanted for Christmas.


_________________
Todd

 2021/11/29 20:15Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Jade:

As to question #1, Paul answered this one with great plainness of speech in Romans 1:18-2:11. We cannot claim that God is unfair at all according to Paul. He has kindly and graciously offered to every man a relationship with Him. But that relationship is predicated upon total surrender to Him. And that is what most men refuse to do.

And that leads into question #2. Revelation tells us that Jesus was slain from before the very foundations of the world. It is not as if the Father and the Son looked at each other after Adam's fall and said, "Oops. We didn't anticipate that. Now what?" Before God created the heavens and the Earth, He already knew that Adam would surrender the dominion given to him by God to the enemy and the entire plan of salvation was already put in place. Remember also that Jesus was the agent of creation. He is the word, and nothing was made without Him. So when God said, "let there be", it was the Son who spoke. So He desired to manifest His presence and glory, His image, in His creation so much that He was willing before creating man to die for man whom He created. What kind of crazy, amazing love is that? But His sacrifice, though made for all, must be received, and man has a say in the matter. Man decides to either receive what was so graciously provided and be born again into his original destiny and purpose, or reject what has been provided and continue in sin. Its ultimately up to us.

#3 Eternal life is a gift, but we have to be careful how we apply that word. Grace means divine empowerment to accomplish by God's power in and through us what we cannot accomplish by our own works. Gift is juxtaposed with earning by works. For by grace (by the power of God) are you saved through faith, so it is the gift of God and not of our own works. The Jews sought to earn righteousness by keeping the law. Jesus said, "No guys, that is not how it works. Your works are not good enough. You must have my power." There is a HUGE requirement to salvation. If any man would come after me He must deny Himself, take up His cross, and follow me. We don't simply repeat a prayer and get a result. That won't work. We decide to surrender ourselves and accept His power to do what we can never do. That is grace.


_________________
Travis

 2021/11/29 22:27Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Todd: Remember, I believe the wicked are destroyed in Hell, not tormented forever. As to a quadrillion years and then on to infinity, we have to remember that time itself, our concept of years, is part of the creation we live in. God is outside of time and sees the end from the beginning. Sure, we sing sons like, "when we've been there ten thousand years...", but will that really have meaning when we also are outside of time itself. I wonder? But that might have bearing on the discussion. I believe the wicked will have eternal destruction, meaning they will be destroyed and it is final. Many might disagree with me, but we would simply be debating meaning of scriptures and words at that point and what is the real benefit right? The issue is punishment.

God is not going to burn with anger forever. But if He is love, then He must deal with sin. Man has been given every opportunity by God. He gave His son, right? Man pulls the trigger on Hell. God just enforces their choice.


_________________
Travis

 2021/11/29 22:34Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey Travis I understand your position and I do happen to agree.

I was just making the point that for those who hold to the concept of conscious eternal torment, punishment is a primary feature. God will always be punishing sinners in the worst imaginable way.


_________________
Todd

 2021/11/30 8:17Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:


Hi Travis,

Quote:
If a man entered your home and murdered your wife and children, and if the police and the judge knew full well with irrefutable evidence that this man did so intentionally and with malice, we would say that system was corrupt and evil that would allow this man to walk away without prosecution and judgement.



This is a description of every descendant of fallen Adam, including you and me:

Rom. 3:10-18 –
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
“Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
“Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

None of us are more righteous in God’s sight.

But Jesus, who knew no sin, came, and was made to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Was God’s system corrupt and evil because wicked sinners are now allowed to walk away without prosecution and judgement?

1 John 2:2 --
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of *** the whole world ***.

Is not *** every sinner *** in the world now able to walk away without prosecution and judgement?



Quote:
If they said in replay that they were only loving the criminal, we would say their love was corrupt and twisted, would we not?



Would you say that God’s love is corrupt and twisted because He loved sinners (Eph. 2:4-5)?



Quote:
As to question #1, Paul answered this one with great plainness of speech in Romans 1:18-2:11.



Rom. 2:5-10 –
But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:………… but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil……………

Comment:
---------
Paul spoke of wrath, judgement, tribulation and anguish. He did not list destruction and death.

Other scripture verses give hope even for these people, such as:

Isa. 26:9 –
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Ps. 30:5 –
For His anger is but for a moment,
His favor is for a lifetime;
Weeping may last for the night,
But a shout of joy comes in the morning.



I asked:

Quote:
Is it just that any descendant of fallen Adam should be eternally condemned because he cannot separate himself from the evil nature that he inherited from Adam that makes him a slave to sin and evil? No one has chosen to be born a sinner and every sinner sins because that is his birth nature. Is it fair?



This is God’s justice:

Rom. 5:18-19 –
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to *** all men ***, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to *** all men ***, resulting in justification of life.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.



Quote:
But His sacrifice, though made for all, must be received, and man has a say in the matter. Man decides to either receive what was so graciously provided and be born again into his original destiny and purpose, or reject what has been provided and continue in sin. Its ultimately up to us.



God has the power to make all things subject to Christ.

1 Cor. 15:28 –
*** Now when all things are made subject to Him ***, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.



Quote:
………Grace means divine empowerment to accomplish by God's power in and through us what we cannot accomplish by our own works………You must have my power………We decide to surrender ourselves and accept His power to do what we can never do. That is grace.



Agree.

Therefore, as eternal life is a gift it must come as a complete package i.e., complete with the gift of faith to appropriate the eternal life.


God has different calls.

In this present age, God is calling His church, “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of the One having called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” (1 Pet. 2:9). The church will be the glorious New Jerusalem in God’s New Earth.

The rest of mankind will be saved as mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:24-28.


Adam ate the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and brought death to all his descendants.

But our Saviour came, and LIFE will triumph over death and destruction.

1 Cor. 15:26 –
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

When death is destroyed, all who died in Adam will no longer be dead. All will be made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:21-22).

Rev. 21:10-11,21; 22:1-2 –
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper………And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass……Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for ***** the healing of the nations *****.



_________________
Jade

 2021/11/30 9:25Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Jade: I am not interested in a long and drawn out theological debate, but I do see now pretty clearly where you are coming from. Let me say a couple of things that I noticed in your reply.

You made an interesting statement from your quote from Romans. You said that none of us are more righteous (I assume you man more righteous than the description in the verses quoted) in God’s sight but then you followed it with a verse that says that in Christ Jesus we are made the very righteousness of God, meaning just as righteous as God Himself. I am not sure if you caught what you were actually saying. But then you followed it up by stating that God was going to allow sinners to walk away without prosecution. What I notice is a statement that has been popularized in the modern church that, unfortunately, has caused countless chaos and destruction among the body. It is this. "We are all sinners."

You see, according to very plainly worded scripture, no sinner will walk away without prosecution. Not a single one. So, in order to escape prosecution we must no longer be sinners. And that is precisely what grace (God’s anointing and power to do in and for us what we cannot do by our own works) did for us.

Its right there in the two covenants. The first was weak and unprofitable because it was based on the efforts of our own flesh. God replaced it with a new covenant that relied entirely on the efficacy of the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ. The Jews stumbled at this and could not receive it. Christ's sacrifice had precisely the purpose in the scripture you quoted. He was made sin for us so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Its salvation! When we surrender our own efforts, repent of dead works, and submit ourselves to Him and to His will and way, we are made righteous by His power. Born all over again into new life in Him. Its Romans 6. He did for us what we could never do. He made us righteous. I am no longer a sinner, and praise God for it. I have a brand new identity. I am a saint, a man born again by the power of God, washed clean, made righteous in His sight. The enmity is gone. I now have peace with God through Christ.

Only the righteous man will have eternal life.

You see, we have created some terrible religious doctrines in the church. We have traditions of men that have been
substituted for the plain truth of the word of God. We have come up with ideas and tried to string scriptures pulled from our concordance word searches to justify those doctrines. But we need not do that. The word is plain and very clear. We only need to accept what it says.

Among these false doctrines is the idea that we are all just sinners and thank God for grace that overlooks it. Honestly, I would go so far as to call it a damnable heresy because it is causing many to lose out on true salvation. Nothing even remotely like that exists in scripture. We were sinners but the blood of Jesus paid the penalty for that sin and if we will share in his death (Romans 6 again), we will also share in His resurrection. We will no longer live (Gal. 4) but He will live in us. His life will be given to us. We will be declared righteous and walk in His power and in His glory. And as a result of having His life, we will also live eternal as He does and be with Him.
And the only way for us to gain this is for us to die. No sharing in His death, no walking in His resurrection.










_________________
Travis

 2021/11/30 19:51Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:


Travis,

Quote:
You see, according to very plainly worded scripture, no sinner will walk away without prosecution. Not a single one. So, in order to escape prosecution we must no longer be sinners.



I said (quoting 2 Cor. 5:21):
“But Jesus, who knew no sin, came, and was made to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

Jesus was made to be sin for us, so we are no longer sinners, and so escape prosecution.



Quote:
Among these false doctrines is the idea that we are all just sinners and thank God for grace that overlooks it.



I did not say that.

I said (quoting 2 Cor. 5:21):
“But Jesus, who knew no sin, came, and was made to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”



Quote:
Christ's sacrifice had precisely the purpose in the scripture you quoted. He was made sin for us so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.



That was precisely what I meant.



Quote:
Only the righteous man will have eternal life.



Again, 2 Cor. 5:21 which I quoted is applicable. We have eternal life because of 2 Cor. 5:21.



Quote:
We were sinners but the blood of Jesus paid the penalty for that sin and if we will share in his death (Romans 6 again), we will also share in His resurrection. We will no longer live (Gal. 4) but He will live in us. His life will be given to us. We will be declared righteous and walk in His power and in His glory. And as a result of having His life, we will also live eternal as He does and be with Him.
And the only way for us to gain this is for us to die. No sharing in His death, no walking in His resurrection.



This has been what I have been trying to share in many of my posts here on SI.

I am so disappointed to have failed as you have not even noticed.



Blessings


_________________
Jade

 2021/12/1 10:26Profile





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