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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Will the walls of denomination be torn down?

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Caleb4life
Member



Joined: 2012/7/22
Posts: 139


 Re:

Hi dear brother Sree,

I really appreciate your candor in posting lately, although with this particular post, I sensed a measure of condescension toward people that in your opinion have stopped "finding a church" and exchanged a traditional "going to church" habit with online fellowship.

But that aside for the moment....

You said:

"Paul himself says divisions are good."

When I read that verse and see "there must be divisions", I do not interpret that to be the same thing as someone saying "divisions are good".

Rather, my sense is that Paul is describing how divisions are inevitable ("they must be"), and while not ideal, they are helpful to show who is genuine and who is not.

In fact, when referencing those very divisions a few verses later, he laments them and says in verse 22:

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"Shall I commend you in this? [the divided way they practiced the Lord's supper, as an example] No, I will not."

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Furthermore, as Paul wrote earlier in I Cor. 1:10, we can see that his appeal is for "no divisions".

Of course we all find ourselves living in what surely must be similar times as Paul to the degree that man has created many divisions, and will likely continue to do so until the Lord returns. Thankfully, it does not have to be so among us!

I love you brother Sree! Thank you for the conversation!


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Caleb

 2021/9/17 13:04Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1936


 Re:

Quote:


When I read that verse and see "there must be divisions", I do not interpret that to be the same thing as someone saying "divisions are good".



I agree with you. "Divisions are good" is not the right interpretation. I believe it should be interpreted as divisions are better than people staying together and fighting.

It is a worldly principle to say that we should always stick together no matter what the situation is. This is not God's view at all.

Yes God wants us to be united in Spirit without any division that is his best plan. But when misunderstandings come and when fights come, it is better to divide than to stay united by force. This is how I believe, God sees things.

In the fellowship I am part of a difference came about celebrating Christmas and few other worthless things. The apostle who was responsible for our fellowship guided the church to divide rather than trying to meet together with all these confusions.

If the Church is not going in the direction in which Christ has walked (the narrow way) then why will people who follow Christ stay in that Church? They will walk out and start a fellowship of like minded believers who want Christ to be in their midst. This is God's will, this is how various denominations were born. They are not born without the will of God. Today those denominations which were born according to the will of God might have deviated from its purpose, that does not mean God never wanted them to exist.

Quote:

I sensed a measure of condescension toward people that in your opinion have stopped "finding a church" and exchanged a traditional "going to church" habit with online fellowship.



My post is directed towards those who stopped searching for a local fellowship and took it for granted that no Church is worthy for them to be part of! If there are people like this (which I am sure there are) then my post is directed at them. I want to be hard on them because they are perishing without the love for Christ and his disciples.

But if someone is genuinely searching for a local body of believers and doing everything that they can to meet with fellow disciples of Jesus Christ but have still not found the fellowship, then my post is not for them. Let God be a witness to each ones heart. Why should such a person even be offended at my post as they have a genuine desire for a local fellowship.


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Sreeram

 2021/9/17 13:48Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3378
Texas

 Re:

I would say that I’m desperately seeking a body of Christ, a 5 fold ministry is what I’m looking for, been seeking one for a while, but there doesn’t seem to be any out there in my area. The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers." Primarily as a result of this verse, some believe God has restored, or is restoring, the offices of apostle and prophet in the church today. Ephesians 4:12-13 tells us that the purpose of the five-fold ministry is, "to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." So, since the body of Christ definitely is not built up to unity in the faith and has not attained to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, the thinking goes, the offices of apostle and prophet must still be in effect.


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Bill

 2021/9/17 15:22Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1936


 Re:

Quote:

I would say that I’m desperately seeking a body of Christ, a 5 fold ministry is what I’m looking for, been seeking one for a while, but there doesn’t seem to be any out there in my area. The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers."



I appreciate your heart but how do we think God will bless a Church with these five-fold ministry? They are not going to jump from heaven with title like Apostle or elder or evangelists. They are people who joined a local Church with burden to glorify Christ in the Church and then God anoints them to take up an office. What if people who are waiting for a Church to appear with these 5 fold ministry are actually called to join a local Church to take up one of these ministries? In other words what if you are called to join a small local fellowship to be a teacher or a prophet or even an Apostle?

Based on my experience with building local Churches, most people who come searching for these ministries do not have patience to see it being planted. They just quickly point out what we are lacking and leave. But out of those who stayed and remained patient, I see God raising Prophets and teachers.

This is just my observation, I am not judging anyone here.


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Sreeram

 2021/9/17 15:42Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3378
Texas

 Re: Sreeram

Quote:
Sreeram said.. Based on my experience with building local Churches, most people who come searching for these ministries do not have patience to see it being planted. They just quickly point out what we are lacking and leave. But out of those who stayed and remained patient, I see God raising Prophets and teachers.

This is just my observation, I am not judging anyone here.




Sreeram, For the record, I'm not trying to hand pick a Church. let me say this, I'm 70, and it's not the 50's anymore, where a person could walk into most any church here in Houston, and as you walked into the doors you feel the Holy Spirits presence, and the Love of Christ, and be taught the meat of the word. Maybe where you're at those kind of Churches are plentiful, not here, they're mostly all business.

Sreeram, So what you're saying is, just go to any church, they're all good, and just stick with that church for a while, it will eventually fit all your needs to grow in the word of God? This is the way I read it, unless you would like to elaborate a bit more. In my "opinion" if you're not being fed the word, it's time to search for a place to be fed, and in Houston, they're thousands of churches, I can get fed better on YouTube and by some of the pastors here on SI, on both I've found some wonderful pastors that feed their flock the meat of the word.

Now here what I don't like or approve of, they're some folks that think because they're going to a church building, they're going to try and put you under condemnation, by telling you that you should be in church. If the church/churches were all that great, why did God speak about the judgement coming in Revelation's?

I believe God is withdrawing His hand of protection from the church in judgment, but the church hasn't realized it yet. It's a well-known fact that there are as many divorces today within the church as outside it. The pleasures and values of most people in the church are not much different from other people's, either. The line that once distinguished Christians from non-Christians has become severely blurred. Why has God not judged?

When God described in Deuteronomy the judgments He would bring if Israel disobeyed Him, the scattering of families was His final judgment. Because of America's high divorce rate, both inside and outside the church, children are being torn away from their families and being torn apart emotionally. Yet the church seems to be mostly unaware that today's events may be part of God's judgment on the church in America.

The main problem is not so much secularism as it is the secularization of the church. The salt is losing its savor, the purity of the church has been compromised, and we've lost sight of the value of a pure church. Persecution always cleanses and purifies the church wherever it occurs, but we don't have to wait for persecution. We can repent now for violating God's Word, bringing the world's values into the church, and failing to obey God's voice.

This is the kind of church I'm looking for, one that follows this scripture, very few of them do this kind of teaching today.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. ~2 Timothy 3:16-17


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Bill

 2021/9/18 9:21Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1121


 Re: Will the walls of denomination be torn down?

Dear Bro.,
I know this is not the local church that you ask about, but this, I believe will give you as it has given me meat/food/Bread for today,.. to suffice until,...
...........
The Saturday morning Bible Study, ..Bro Gbile Akanni

https://youtube.com/watch?v=awarG3dBY6s&feature=share

I do believe it will bless you,
............
elizabeth

 2021/9/18 20:39Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3378
Texas

 Re: elizabeth

Thank you elizabeth, I appreciate it.


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Bill

 2021/9/19 3:30Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1936


 Re:

Quote:

In my "opinion" if you're not being fed the word, it's time to search for a place to be fed, and in Houston, they're thousands of churches, I can get fed better on YouTube and by some of the pastors here on SI, on both I've found some wonderful pastors that feed their flock the meat of the word.



This is where we differ mainly. The fundamental purpose of being part of a Church is NOT to hear a great word. That we can all receive online these days, as you have pointed out rightly. The fundamental purpose is to fellowship with like minded believers. By likeminded I mean those who want to follow the Lord. Anyone who says he loves the Lord Jesus will also have a thirst to fellowship with believers who love him. Not in some online way but in real method of knowing them, encouraging them and then being encouraged, meeting with them regularly, breaking bread with them. Jesus himself longed to be with believers during his earthly stay. How much more should we be!

I have lived in Texas and I was part of building a fellowship with 3 other families. Today they have many families meeting together as a Church. But apart from that I also searched for local Bible studies. I attended those at homes, Church buildings etc. My thirst was always to find like minded believers who wanted to follow the Lord wholeheartedly. Texas has lot of such small groups who meet and discuss the word of the Lord.

Quote:

Sreeram, So what you're saying is, just go to any church, they're all good, and just stick with that church for a while, it will eventually fit all your needs to grow in the word of God?


Totally wrong!
The reason you are struggling to understand me is because our understanding of Church is different. To you a Church is the place where you visit on a Sunday and listen to a powerful sermon. When you can get that online, what is the need to sit in a building? This is the question in your mind. That is why I addressed the need for fellowship first.

To me Church is not a building or a place with a powerful sermon. It is a body of Believers as mentioned in the Bible. A body whose head is Christ himself not a pastor who can give a powerful sermon! What is the use of a pastor like those in SI who can give a powerful sermon if there is no body of believers to fellowship with? That is not a Church Biblically.

By our love for fellow believers we will be known as disciple of Jesus(John 13:35). It is not by hearing a powerful sermon sitting alone before a computer. We need to get out and fellowship with believers.

I too hear a lot of sermons and I too believe I speak God's word powerfully in my Church. But that is not the main reason why I am part of a Church (a local body of believers). When 2 or more gather in Jesus name with one mind then Jesus is in their midst. So it is the people we gather with are more important than a powerful message. Jesus never said he is in the midst of a powerful sermon!

I am much more younger than you, almost less than half your age. I would encourage you to search for believers to fellowship with. Pray that God will lead you to those who follow Christ wholeheartedly. It is the right place to start.

The danger of places like SI, youtube where you can listen to serious good message is, they separate people from the need for fellowship with like minded believers. While I appreciate the availability of such powerful sermons online, we should not miss the body of believers (the Church).


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Sreeram

 2021/9/19 3:55Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3378
Texas

 Re: Sreeram

Quote:
Sreeram said: But that is not the main reason why I am part of a Church (a local body of believers). When 2 or more gather in Jesus name with one mind then Jesus is in their midst. So it is the people we gather with are more important than a powerful message.

So the other 2 or 3 people that gather at my home with me to Home Church on Sunday's, are not the same as the 2 or more that gather in a Church Building? Of course it’s always good to assemble with your Christian Brothers and Sisters. Also, remember, you don’t “go” to church. Remember that we are the church. The church is not a physical building, a denomination or a church movement.

In the very beginning, the concept of "church" was also highly in relation to "house churches" before solidifying into structures for the sole intention of worship, fellowship, and edification, or "churches" as we know it. This is important to note because the idea of going to the house church would have been fairly normal. Family and friends would be there, and they’d come together to learn about the Faith.

God wants to be worshiped by true worshippers. True worshippers worship in spirit and truth because they are the ones who don’t need a nice sanctuary or nice building to worship their God. They don’t need a praise team or a good singing choir to get them pumped up to worship. They don’t need some robe laden preacher, with fake armor-bearers and false words for itchy ears, to motivate them to hear from the Lord. True worshippers are those who are not ashamed to tell the world their personal story about, “If it had not been for the Lord on my side, where would I be.”

Jesus said God is looking for true worshippers who worship in spirit and truth. Notice, God is not looking for good Baptists, good Methodists, good Catholics, etc. God is not looking for church members. God is not looking for church folk who praise and worship their pastors. God is not looking for worshippers who go to church because they enjoy and can relate to how a particular church does things in worship. God is not looking for worshippers, who go to certain churches because it is easy for them to pretend and fool everybody. God is not looking for worshippers who come to church because of the choir, because of the members or because of the pastor.

Sreeram, it's ok to agree to disagree, if you and I thought exactly alike, we could not be in God's personal will for our life. God's personal will for my life, is to have a home fellowship, unless He's told you something different, if so, please let me know. I would be very careful in telling someone God spoke to me and told me what God's will for someone else's life is.


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Bill

 2021/9/19 11:14Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3378
Texas

 Re: Everyone

Hopefully one day, us believers will become more focused on bringing in the lost sheep, by being salt and light, and not spending so much time on trying to put our Brothers and Sisters in Christ, under condemnation. Perfect example, I started a thread to ask a question, "Will the walls of denomination be torn down?" And now this thread has been turned into a personal attack on the way I worship. I've heard it said many times, "You Haven't Ever Been Beat Up, Until You've Been Beat Up By A Christian" How true.


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Bill

 2021/9/19 13:15Profile





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