Perhaps it would be advantageous to list Scriptures that pertain to this topic from both sides of the "lose it/can't lose it" discussion.

I realize that some people have already included Scriptures (and commentary) on this issue in their individual posts, but perhaps it would be expedient for those who discuss this issue to make a list of Scriptures that supports their perspective or beliefs.

Perhaps this would provide those who are diligently seeking answers to have a list of verses to compare.

:-)

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Christopher

Great idea! I'll start preparing a list from both side, but I'm kind of busy, so it might take a day. Let's try to just list Scripture and keep the commentary to a minimum if at all. Let the Holy Spirit and prayer be the commentary.

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Patrick Ersig

I haven't wanted to post on this thread, because it brought back some memories of days gone by.

I was on a Theological Debate forum years ago, where there was heavy use of the Greek grammar, exegetical stuff, college grads, etc. etc..
So the debate and the forum itself, was on the college level.

Well, that debate went on for ... at first ... 15 pages ... so the Moderator had to start a Part 2 .
That went on to another 15 pages.

Then Part 3, and so on and so on.

And that was Years ago, but you know what .... it's still going. :lol:

I check back there once in a while, though I quit posting there years ago also. Ha !

Then sometime later, I got off the Internet altogether, to do a Sabbatical and search my heart for what matters most. HIM !

Anyhow, first I'll give my stance, but then my opinion.

I am not Reformed Theology. Not OSAS.
And that, because of the Greek Grammar and contextual, etc. reasons.

But now, my opinion ...

I was part of that endless debate, that actually started before the Reformation and will continue till The Lord returnsw .... but in the years since, I wondered "What on earth was I doing ?"

I love Spurgeon, Murray, and a whole crew of Calvinists, many listed on this Site, as great Authors and I know there are Calvinists who love Finney, Wesley, W. Law, Etc..

I think on a site like this one ... that's what you'll find.
People who just love the "deeper walk."

I'm not saying, you have to stop your debating, because like I've said before, I'm all for freedom of speech ...
But what I'm trying to say, is don't let this bring a division between y'all. But you probably already knew that, without my input.

UNconditional security is only bad, if it's used as an excuse to live sloppy. "Sloppy Agape" for God,the Body & the world.
Dedication to God, and such.

Predestination is bad, if it lessens the need to Evangelise ALL. Or minimizes the "whosoever will" Verses.

And on these two points ... I don't know a Classic Calvinist writer on this site, who agrees with either of those two.
They all preached "seperation & Holiness" and were very Evangelical minded.

The main point of what I'm trying to say here is ... If you're not Calvinist, yet like some of the Calvinist Authors or speakers offered on this site ~ well isn't that saying something ? And vice versa.

Evangelism and Holiness I believe is the purpose of this site ... and unity under those two banners is great.

I hope you understand my heart in this and that I'm not trying to squelch good Bible Verse exchanges.

Love Him.


The not 'that' old grannie.
Annie

Annie, we hadn't got round to looking at those old guys in this thread, but I am here now to post that I'm not too keen to set up a list of for and against Bible verses, because I don't see it as an either-or issue.

It seems to me we've all experienced the change in perception one gets through coming to faith in the work of Jesus Christ. Before, we were [i]distant[/i] from God, no matter how much we knew from previous church attendance, and after, He brought us [i]near[/i], no matter how little we knew about Him before believing.

The question may be something more to do with how one defines salvation, since it always rests on the finished work of Christ. The questions which arise each day are about choices - choices to respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit to follow, to obey, to continue in faith. As I do that today, I am saved - I am being saved.

Although God sees the end from the beginning, all I can promise Him, is that while I have life and breath, I will believe. For His part, He promises that while I believe, I am saved.

When creating a phrase like 'lose one's salvation' one is unavoidably referring more truthfully to losing touch with the Lord and the Father of Jesus Christ - my Father to whom I still have access while I remember Him and while I am bothered if I lose touch with Him.

If I stop believing, stop caring, stop trying to recover the knowledge of being in His presence, am I saved? Has this anything at all to do with God? Is it not entirely down to my own actions? Does not my return to fellowship with God depend utterly on His grace to receive me back - through the eternal Spirit, through the eternal sacrifice, which from the first day of my first faith, remains steadfastly unchanged?

Just to confuse matters though, as I return to Him from times of failure, disobedience, forgetfulness, selfishness, guilt and shame, I find that my relationship with Him is [i]not the same[/i]. How I behave both when I am following and when I am not following, have an impact on the next phase of my interactions with God. These adjustments have the effect of changing [i][b]me[/b][/i], which is always His design. He is already perfect and desires to complete us every day, that we may have fellowship with Him afresh.

Thus, I am being saved, not as at the first only, but into a deeper knowledge of His nature - if I want to be. The difficulty, when I try to see this relationship from the outside to weigh it against an objective standard, is that I cannot do this [i]and[/i] be in fellowship with Him at the same time. This can be a help only in the most dire of situations, if it helps me see how far I have drifted away from Him.

Now, nothing I have said interferes with God's sovreign choice to chase after me until He has been back in His presence. But, I can't answer for God. I can only answer for my own prayers and my own responses, which I strongly desire will be pleasing to Him, whether I come as a sinner, or as a son.

Hi Dorcas...

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Christopher

ccchhhrrriiisss,

Of course you are right. It is not a Bible study I have done separately. Gradually, it's come to me that the whole thing hangs on the relationship with God. Without a relationship, one can more correctly ask, 'am I saved?' With regard to perspective, in the threads of the last few weeks, the post by *Servus in 'Salvation can be rejected and lost' has been a real blessing. He shows from scripture how our initial meeting with the Lord changes our relationship with Him and, how our perception of sin and dealing with it is now different. (P2*)

If one looks to verses in the Bible and appropriates the promises of God that are contained in the Bible and yet does not find the Word of God transforming him, where does he find himself in the parable of the sower?

For example, is there any difference in the quality of soil between one who's life is choked out by the torns and thistle, and the one where the seed flourishes in good soil?

What is the difference between these two groups of believers?

In Christ,
Jeff

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Jeff Marshalek

No.

Peace and God Bless!