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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Daniel 12:9 vs Rev. 22:10

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drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 770
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Todd said Darby invented the 7 year tribulation period and pre tribulation rapture. I posted those quotes by Hippolytus and Irenaeus to show that some in the early church WAY before Darby did believe in a 7 year tribulation period; it is not a new teaching.

As for the pre tribulation rapture, some church fathers did believe it.

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overcome the world because of our sins." Ephraim the Syrian 306-373 AD

"Go therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord his mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the Great Tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it." The Shepherd of Hermas (written as early as 144 AD)

I've been very vocal on this forum in the past about not putting the church father's writings on the same level as scripture. I disagree strongly with some of them on some issues. My purpose in quoting them is not an argument from an authoritative source but rather a historical source.

Of course I love everyone on this forum in Christ, but the people that have a dismissive, scoffing attitude about Jesus' soon return gives me a definite check in my spirit. I'll leave you all with the words of Paul in his first epistle to the Thessalonians: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Edit: I assume Hippolytus meant by "the preaching of the prophets" the two witnesses.


_________________
Nigel Holland

 2021/6/5 14:21Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5831
NC, USA

 Re:

All I know is that Darby invented the dispensationalism scheme as it is known today, with its charts and indoctrinations in seminaries etc.

This is common knowledge.

People like to be titillated and dispensationalism is very titillating.

Every day there is a new news item that is forced into the scheme.


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Todd

 2021/6/6 9:13Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 770
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

But we know for sure Darby did not invent the 7 year tribulation period or the rapture out of whole cloth.

I don't think Darby made those charts to titillate anyone. From what I see of his life he genuinely loved the Lord and longed for His return, as we all should. Was he right on every single point of his eschatology? Probably not, and I have never met anyone who gets absolutely EVERYTHING right. (I'd say he was fairly close to the mark, though.)

It's easy to argue away the clear meaning of scriptures. Try to talk to a Jew about the Messianic prophecies. If you mention Isaiah 53 to them they'll just say it means Israel as a nation, not Jesus Christ. You can't convince them if they refuse to see it.


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Nigel Holland

 2021/6/6 23:18Profile
deogloria
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Joined: 2020/2/12
Posts: 116


 Re:

Francisco Ribera seems to have invented the whole idea and his main concern was not Biblical Truth !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Ribera


 2021/6/7 0:09Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 770
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

We can see from my previous posts that neither Francisco Ribera nor John Nelson Darby invented the 7 year tribulation period nor the pre tribulation rapture. These views were held by some in the early church.


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Nigel Holland

 2021/6/7 18:23Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 770
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

I'm about half way through "The Scarlet Woman" by Keith Malcomson and I recommend everyone on here read it. It shows beyond the shadow of a doubt the woman in Revelation 17 can't be anything other than the Roman Catholic Church.


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Nigel Holland

 2021/6/7 18:26Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5831
NC, USA

 Re:

I know that Matthew Henry and other commentators of his era believed the pope/papacy was the “man of sin”/Antichrist. Much of it does seem to fit.


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Todd

 2021/6/8 10:38Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2145


 Re: 4th Century



Whether Henry or any other believed that the pope/papacy was the "man of sin"/Antichrist matters not.

The RCC didn't get off the ground til circa 4th century. The book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ, along with all New Testament books were written pre-70ad.

The writers of the New Testament had their contemporaries in mind as they addressed those in the 1st century.

Only when the Scriptures are read through the futurist lens of eschatology, do we get errors such as dispensationalism and the RCC in prophecy.

Since some are promoting books, I'd promote one as well. The book by Jay E. Adams, "The Time is at Hand", written in 1966. And it's just 172 pages or so. I highly recommend this book.

 2021/6/8 15:43Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 770
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Hi Savannah. I'd read any books recommended to me with an open mind.

I agree, John did have his contemporaries in mind when he, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote Revelation. That's why in verse 9 he said "The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth." Rome historically is known as "the city on seven hills". In verse 18 he says "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." No other city in the world could have fit that description in the first century.

There is much, much more evidence, so I would highly recommend getting the book.


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Nigel Holland

 2021/6/8 16:19Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2145


 Re: Rome is not that "great city"


Revelation 11:8

Their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

Revelation 16:19

And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Revelation 17:18

“And The Woman which you saw is that Great City, which has rule over the Kings of The Earth.”

Jeremiah 22:8,9

“And many nations will pass by this city; and they will say to one another, ‘Why has the LORD done thus to this great city?’ “Then they will answer, ‘Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD their God and bowed down to other gods and served them.’”

________________________


In Revelation John uses Babylon as a metaphor of Jerusalem. Before I can demonstrate this, I must rehearse two important interpretive keys to the Book of Revelation:

(1) Revelation is dealing with events “which must soon take place” (Rev 1:1; 1:3; 22:6, 10). It is not prophesying events thousands of years distant from John’s original audience.

(2) John is reflecting on Jesus’ Olivet Discourse and has his stated theme the judgment of Israel in AD 70. Note that the only two verses in the Bible that merge Dan 7:13 and Zech 12:10 are Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7. In Matt 24:30 Jesus is clearly dealing with the destruction of the temple (Matt 24:2, 16) in the first century (Matt 24:34). John’s theme in Rev 1:7 states that Jesus is coming in a cloud-judgment against those who crucified him (in the NT the Jews are blamed for Christ’s crucifixion (Matt 26:59, 66; 27:1; Mark 14:64; Luke 23:22–23; 24:20; Acts 2:22–23, 36; 3:13–15a; 4:10; 5:28, 30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27–29; 1 Thess 2:14–15). As a consequence, all the tribes of “the Land” (the Greek ge is usually translated “earth,” but can and should be translated “Land,” i.e., the Promised Land). (Read "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Ken Gentry, defending a pre-AD 70 date for Revelation’s writing).

In Revelation 17:3–6 John views a horrifying sight. Seated upon the dreadful beast is the sinful Harlot:

“He carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.”

Since she sits on the seven-headed beast, some believe she represents the city of Rome.

This is because she is resting on Rome’s seven hills and is called “Babylon,” which often applies to Rome in antiquity. But since the beast itself represents Rome, it seems redundant to have the woman representing the same. Also, the name “Babylon” does not historically belong either to Rome or Jerusalem, and thus cannot prove that the city is Rome. I am convinced beyond any doubt that this harlot is first-century Jerusalem. The evidence for so identifying Jerusalem is based on the following considerations.

First, Revelation 14:8 calls Babylon “the great city.” But in the first mention of “the great city” in Revelation 11:8, this indisputably refers to Jerusalem, “where also our Lord was crucified” (Lk 9:31; 13:33–34; 18:31; 24:18–20). Her greatness especially highlights her covenantal status in the Old Testament (Jer 22:8; Lam 1:1).

But even pagan writers speak highly of Jerusalem as a significant contemporary city. Tacitus calls it “a famous city.” Pliny the Elder comments that it is “by far the most famous city of the ancient Orient.” Appian, a Roman lawyer and writer (ca. AD 160) called it “the great city Jerusalem” (Tacitus, Histories 5:2; Fragments of the Histories 1; Pliny, Natural History 5:14:70; Appian, The Syrian Wars 50). The Sibylline Oracles, Josephus, and the Talmud concur in calling Jerusalem “a great city” (Sibylline Oracles 5:150–154, 408–413; Josephus, J.W. 7:1:1; 7:8:7. For Talmudic references, see: Edersheim, Sketches of Jewish Social Life, 82). Thus, the first interpretive clue to Babylon’s identity points to Jerusalem.

Second, the harlot is filled with the blood of the saints (Rev 16:6; 17:6; 18:21, 24). Of course, with the outbreak of Nero’s persecution, which commences just prior to John’s writing Revelation, Rome is stained with the saints’ blood. But Rome has only recently entered the persecuting ranks of God’s enemies.

Throughout Acts Jerusalem is appears as the persecutor and Rome as the protector of Christianity (Acts 4:3; 5:18–33; 6:12; 7:54–60; 8:1ff; 9:1–4, 13, 23; 11:19; 12:1–3; 13:45–50; 14:2–5, 19; 16:23; 17:5–13; 18:12; 20:3, 19; 21:11, 27; 22:30; 23:12, 20, 27, 30; 24:5–9; 25:2–15; 25:24; 26:21. See also: 2 Co 11:24; 2Th 2:14–15; Heb 10:32–34).

Interestingly, in the Olivet Discourse context Jesus reproaches Jerusalem: “Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. . . . Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!” (Mt 23:34–35, 37).

Before his stoning Stephen rebukes Jerusalem: “Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they have slain them who showed before of the coming of the Just One, of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers” (Ac 7:51–52).

Paul warns of Jewish persecution: “For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost” (1Th 2:14–16).

Third, the harlot’s dress reflects the Jewish priestly colors of scarlet, purple, and gold (Rev 17:4–5 with Ex 25:2, 4; 26:1, 31, 36; 27:16; 28:1–2, 5–12, 15, 17–23, 33). In fact, she even has a blasphemous tiara on her forehead, which reads: “Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth” (Rev 17:5). This negatively portrays the holy tiara that the Jewish high priest wore, which declares “Holy to the Lord” (Ex 28:36–38). Still further, the harlot has a gold cup in her hand, reflecting the high priest on the Day of Atonement, according to the Jewish Talmud.

Fourth, Rome cannot commit adultery against God, for she had never been God’s wife. But Jerusalem was God’s wife (Isa 1:21; 57:8; Jer 2:2, 20; 3:1–20; 4:30; 11:15; 13:27; Eze 16; Hos 2:5; 3:3; 4:15), and Scripture often charges her with committing adultery against him (Isa 1:21; 57:8; Jer 2:2, 20; 3:1–20; 4:30; 11:15; 13:27; Eze 16; Hos 2:5; 3:3; 4:15). The harlot imagery better suits an adulterous wife, such as Jerusalem.

The evidence proves that the harlot is Jerusalem. John’s Revelation contrasts the Jerusalem below with the Jerusalem above, as in Hebrews 12:22 and Galatians 4:25–26. The Jerusalem below has forsaken her husband in denying the Messiah.

I believe it to be supremely clear that John is dealing with Jerusalem under the image of Babylon. She is the new enemy of God, even being called “a synagogue of Satan” (Rev 2:9; 3:9) and “Egypt” (Rev 11:8). This is much like Isaiah calling Israel Sodom and Gomorrah (Isa 1:10) and Ezekiel calling her the sister of Sodom (Eze 16:49). - K. Gentry

 2021/6/8 21:27Profile





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