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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5831
NC, USA

 Re:

You are correct- that is why I am confused.

I do believe in a literal future 2d coming and a recreation of the universe but I view them as practically simultaneous. I don’t believe in a literal 7 year Great Tribulation or a literal 1000 year millennial reign, nor any type of “rapture” prior to the 2d coming.

At this point my mind is pretty much set and I don’t think ANYONE has it all figured out. What will happen will happen and the key is to be ready regardless.


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Todd

 2021/5/7 15:38Profile
deogloria
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Joined: 2020/2/12
Posts: 116


 Re:

I don't have a problem with the view that Jesus will one day reign from a New Jerusalem over a New Earth.
But as Todd said: "I don’t think ANYONE has it all figured out. What will happen will happen and the key is to be ready regardless. "

Something more serious: "The calling and history of Israel, from beginning to end, is the greatest story of all of God, His mercy, His judgment and His unfailing love. It's a historical object lesson set forth for all the world to see. "
That is a tragic statement !
It might make interesting object lesson. But what we read in the OT are shadows, types and examples
"Christ is at the heart of the Scriptures: he is patterned, promised, and present from Genesis onward..."(Desiring God )
"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature," (Hebrews 1v3)

The greatest story about God, His Mercy and unfailing love is that “... God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. ...
and Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross. 9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names,…(Phil. 2:7-9)

Paul's letters are all about Jesus and the Gospel !
Here I see the true problem and tragedy. doc,you write mainly about prophecies and Israel, but hardly about the Gospel and the unsearchable riches of Christ !
I think you try and find some kind of fulfillment and peace in what you are writing. But you will never find it in what you are doing, because it is all "In Christ alone..."
I hope you will at least try and understand what I'm trying to say.

Blessings and peace to you

Markus

 2021/5/8 4:07Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5831
NC, USA

 Re:

Excellent point Markus. We all get distracted by what should truly be our focus. Like Tozer said, “Jesus Christ is first and everything else is last.”


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Todd

 2021/5/8 7:48Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2400


 Re:

The foundation of all is the atoning death of a twice coming Messiah. In this Messiah are found the unsearchable riches.

I don't see how the great object lesson of God's love in Christ for Israel eventually winning over the prodigal nation is a tragic statement.

Meanwhile, Markus' words concerning me are highly presumptuous and wrong. But such is life on a forum many times.

Thanks to BranchinVINE and others for their comments.

Thank you and blessings.



_________________
David Winter

 2021/5/8 8:02Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5831
NC, USA

 Re:

Doc- it was this statement:

"The calling and history of Israel, from beginning to end, is the greatest story of all of God, His mercy, His judgment and His unfailing love. It's a historical object lesson set forth for all the world to see.”

It might be mincing words, but the greatest story of all is of course the gospel of Jesus Christ, not God’s dealings with Israel.


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Todd

 2021/5/8 12:29Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


 Re:

Hi TMK,

I don't think that those are words that doc -- or anyone --would necessarily take issue with. Rather, it was this:

Quote:

Here I see the true problem and tragedy. doc,you write mainly about prophecies and Israel, but hardly about the Gospel and the unsearchable riches of Christ !

I think you try and find some kind of fulfillment and peace in what you are writing. But you will never find it in what you are doing, because it is all "In Christ alone..."

I hope you will at least try and understand what I'm trying to say.



I think that it somewhat difficult to make any sort of assessment of someone on the basis of the little that we read from them on a public forum.

As of today, doc (David) has written 2,388 posts over the last 15 years. I've seen plenty of posts that were not focused specifically upon eschatology or even Israel (in this particular manner of discussion).

This is one of the unfortunate things that happens when people -- even true believers -- engage in discussions, conversations or exchanges about issues of varying opinions.

Todd, as you said, no one has it "all figured out." Yet, even admitting this can be a point of contention for some people.

Years ago (nearly back to the beginning of this website), there was a debate over eschatology. It contained the common points of contention (e.g., rapture or no rapture, pre/mid/post trib views, believers killed by judgment poured upon Earth or not, what the mark of the beast is or is not, etc.).

My view then (which hasn't changed much since) was based more upon concern that these matters really don't matter. I do not know the exact specificities by which the Lord will return. I mentioned how Keith Green wrote that we should "pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib." I also mentioned how David Wilkerson was "pan-tribulation" -- saying that it will "all pan out in the end."

I was trying to say that the end will come no matter what -- and nothing that I believe about it will change HOW it comes about. My directive is to simply seek the Lord and spread the Gospel to as many people as possible until he returns.

Yet, even this was a point of contention. It became a "thing" to the point where one friend on the forum voiced concern over the condition of my soul (suggesting that I might be deceived into taking the "mark of the beast").

I appreciate these discussions and I endeavor to learn from each of them. However, I try (and sometimes fail) when it comes to perceiving people by what they've posted on this SermonIndex forum.

With this in mind, it is helpful to be aware of my own flaws, limits to understanding and realization that my views sometimes change over time (through study, prayer and revelation from both study and prayer). I also realize that we all write differently. Our writing (and the context thereof) is often a poor reflection of who we are.

I've only spoken on the phone (or in person) with a handful of people from SermonIndex. I think that we get a better picture of a person from conversations over the phone or in-person. Yet, even these are truly limited because only God sees the heart.

To be clear: I approach this topic (and most that aren't entirely clear from Scripture) with the knowledge that I don't have full knowledge. However, I love to read the views of others and challenge myself to study what I read or hear.

Yet, in all of this, I am aware that I should not be distracted from that which is most important -- to desire and seek him who is invisible. This means that I must live out the first and second greatest commandments. This is true even whether we're sharing testimonies or discussing doctrines that aren't entirely clear.

I often fail in this endeavor. I just hope that, when I write, I would be motivated by the love of God. That way, I would neither purposely offend or be offended. After all, we are all members of the Body of Christ. We want to know the truth of such matters -- but this is all secondary to knowing Him as we "walk through the wilderness of this world."


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Christopher

 2021/5/8 13:06Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2400


 Re:

/It might be mincing words, but the greatest story of all is of course the gospel of Jesus Christ, not God’s dealings with Israel./

What nation and people did God choose to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world?

God chose Abraham, and later Israel, not because of anything they had done or anything they deserved. It's the same with our salvation.

In spite of their constant unfaithfulness, and even the rejection of the promised Messiah, God promised to never leave or forsake them (Jer 31:35-37; Romans 11:1). This is a glowing example of God's unchanging love for them which is in many ways the same with us. We were the chieftest of Christ rejecters but God did not abandon nor forsake us. He rather saved us out of sin and death and rebellion. Likewise, the gospel of Jesus Christ, will ultimately yet capture and triumph in the hearts of Israel the present prodigal nation. Much of this mirrors our own experience of salvation. Even as we continue to sin at times, God is not going to forsake us. I stand by my statement - "The calling and history of Israel, from beginning to end, is the greatest story of all of God, His mercy, His judgment and His unfailing love." It's a historical object lesson of which the central plot is the appearance of Christ and His work on behalf of Israel and the whole world. It's set forth for all the world to see. God's dealings with Israel are a clear mirror and a great demonstrable object lesson in many ways of our own salvation. If you want to understand a bit more about your own salvation and how it works, there are many things to be learned from God's dealings with Israel. The same with them the same with us in many ways.

If you want to divorce the gospel of Jesus Christ from Israel, and God's dealings with them, then go ahead but I don't want any of it. I was allowed to participate in and become a partaker in the unsearchable riches of the gospel of Jesus Christ because of a covenant made with THEM (salvation is of the Jews). The history of God's dealings with them are very instructive for believers today. "All these things happened to them as examples , and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world have come" (I Cor 10:11).

Prophecy can be seen as Christ putting the finishing touches on the work He began at His first advent. He is not at all through. Wanting to know about and understand these events is far from being distracted. The point about allegorical interpretations of prophecy, always minimizing Israel, is that some of them seem to me to be as far fetched and even at times as ludicrous as Markus' out of left field and incorrect psychoanalysis of my motives. You and him ignore statements from me (quoting Reggie) such as, "The foundation of all is the atoning work of a twice coming Messiah." Therein lies the gospel of Jesus Christ from which you imply I am distracted.

But all is well. Thank you and thank you for your input although we don't always agree.

Blessings.




_________________
David Winter

 2021/5/8 14:19Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 839
Australia

 Re:


Hi Christopher,

I have not forgotten to give you a reply.

First,

You said to TMK:

Quote:
I will point out that the purest basis for the Old Covenant was not in the Law of Moses but in an actual promise that God made to Abraham.



God made the Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham and his seed, that is, Christ (Gal. 3:16).

God made the Old /Mosaic Covenant NOT with Abraham BUT with Abraham’s natural descendants.

These are therefore two very different covenants.

More later.


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Jade

 2021/5/12 9:06Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


 Re:

Hi BranchinVINE,

Quote:

God made the Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham and his seed, that is, Christ (Gal. 3:16).

God made the Old /Mosaic Covenant NOT with Abraham BUT with Abraham’s natural descendants.

These are therefore two very different covenants.



I think that if you go back and read what I've previously written, you'll find that I tried to make this clear in all of my posts about this. In fact, I tried to point out the distinction between the original basis for the Old Covenant (in terms of the land promised) and the Covenant Law of Moses.

In Romans, Paul made this same distinct comparison -- pointing out that the basis for the Old Covenant was non-conditional and was born out of FAITH (i.e., "Then he believed the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness" [Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:1-25]).

This Covenant with Abraham was antecedent to the Covenant Law of Moses. It was made by God more than half a millennium before the Law of Moses.

Not many people who talk about various versions of replacement theology point out the difference. They point at how the Law is obsolete. Yet, even if the Law of Moses is obsolete, it doesn't necessarily mean that the original Covenant is.

To be clear: The Covenant with Abraham was not based upon righteousness by works -- because it was born out of righteousness by faith. It is also not dependent upon compulsory ways to work out and achieve righteousness either. When the Lord cited his Covenant and the promises with it, it went back to Abraham and his faith.


_________________
Christopher

 2021/5/12 14:26Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 839
Australia

 Re:

Hi Christopher,

Quote:
I think that if you go back and read what I've previously written, you'll find that I tried to make this clear in all of my posts about this. In fact, I tried to point out the distinction between the original basis for the Old Covenant (in terms of the land promised) and the Covenant Law of Moses.



NO LAND was promised in the Old/Mosaic Covenant.

These were the promises (Ex. 19:5-6):
(1) They would be God’s peculiar treasure above all people;
(2) They would be to God a kingdom of priests; and
(3) The would be a holy nation.
They would receive these promises only if they obeyed God’s voice and kept His covenant.

They failed so they have lost these promises.


As I see it, two covenants – the Abrahamic Covenant and the Old/Mosaic Covenant – co-existed from Sinai to the Cross.

The Abrahamic Covenant is only for people of faith in God.

The Israelites entered the earthly land of Canaan BY THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT BY FAITH.

Heb. 11:30 –
BY FAITH the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.

They were led by Joshua, A MAN OF FAITH in God.

Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua and God gave them all the land that God had promised Abraham.

Josh. 21:43-45 –
So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand. Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass.

Josh. 24:31 –
Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel.

The Israelites entered the land of Canaan by the Abrahamic Covenant by grace through faith. BUT their continued stay in the land was conditional upon their obedience to the statutes, ordinances and commandments of the Old/Mosaic Covenant (Lev. 26:14-46).

They failed and lost the land.

Heb. 8:9 –
because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.


God had something infinitely greater, more perfect, and unbreakable.

The Abrahamic Covenant which is irrevocable was brought to the greatness and fullness of truth and unimaginable glory in the Lord Jesus Christ.

With the coming of Christ, all things transitioned from shadow to substance, from temporal to eternal, from earthly to heavenly, from flesh to spirit.

John 14:6 –
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

To Nicodemus, a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews, Jesus said:

John 3:3,6-7 –
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God……………That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

2 Cor. 4:18 (BLB) –
We are not looking at the things being seen, but the things not being seen. For the things being seen are temporary, but the things not being seen are eternal.

And, the glorious Israel of God in the Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant (which has been called “New Israel”) is IN CHRIST and comprises people of all nations, including the Jewish people.

With the inauguration of the New Covenant in Jesus’ blood, the Old/Mosaic Covenant is obsolete (Heb. 8:13).

The glory of the New Covenant surpasses that of the Old Covenant and is that which remains.

2 Cor. 3:10-11 –
For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Abraham desired a heavenly country (Heb. 11:16) and rejoiced to see Jesus’ day (John 8:56).

Peter said:

2 Pet. 3:10,13 –
……… and the earth and its works will be burned up…………But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Moses’ last command to the Israelites was to obey the gospel that Paul preached.

Deut. 30:11-14 –
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

Rom. 10:5-8 –
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

Rom. 10:12-13 –
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


Surely there is a great significance in the name change from Abram to Abraham.


Quote:
In Romans, Paul made this same distinct comparison -- pointing out that the basis for the Old Covenant was non-conditional and was born out of FAITH (i.e., "Then he believed the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness" [Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:1-25]).



Rom. 4:1-25 links the Abrahamic Covenant with the New Covenant in Jesus’ blood, NOT with the Old/Mosaic Covenant.


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Jade

 2021/5/13 1:52Profile





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