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jochbaptist
Member



Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 322


 According to our Lord

John 16:10

New International Version

I have other sheep (Gentiles) that are not of this sheep pen (Believing Jews). I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Amen


_________________
J Kruger

 2021/5/1 17:32Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 840
Australia

 Re: docs

Quote:
Where is the term "New Israel" found in the New Testament? Why would God form a new Israel when He is not ever going to be through with the old Israel



Old Israel, i.e., Israel of the Old Testament and the Old Covenant.
New Israel, i.e., Israel of the New Testament and the New Covenant.

Perhaps I should say the “true Israel” instead of New Israel (Rom. 9:6-8, Gal. 3:29, 4:28).


Heb. 8:13 –
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Comment:
If the Old Covenant is obsolete and has disappeared, wouldn’t everything based on it become obsolete and disappear too?


The Lord Jesus said to the chief priests and Pharisees:

Matt. 21:43 –
"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”

It is given to the true Israel (Rom. 9:6-8) comprising believers in Christ, both Jew and Gentiles, who can bear fruit for God by abiding in Christ (John 15).

Rom. 7:4 –
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.


Quote:
The believing body of Christ is now made up of Jews and Gentiles. How does that change in any way the original promises made to Israel even regarding a future land inheritance presided over by their now returned Savior?



Can you give the scripture for these “original promises”? Thanks.


Quote:
It sort of baffles me why such basic 101 things are offered as if premillennialists aren't aware of them. Why did you include this? Every Christian knows this.



It means that Amos’ prophecy is for Israel of the New Covenant in the New Testament and NOT for Israel of the Old Covenant in the Old Testament.


Quote:
All this in heaven or is there an earthly aspect to this?



The Lord Jesus said:

John 18:36 –
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."


Quote:
Yes He has pitched a heavenly tabernacle, but why is He going to return to earth? When He returns, at which physical geographical location on the earth will He set His feet on?



When the Lord Jesus returns “like a thief”, “at an hour that you do not expect (Luke 12:40)”, this existing earth will be burnt up.

2 Pet. 3:10 –
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Since this old earth will be burned up, I suggest He will set His feet on the New Earth with His bride the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21 & 22).


Quote:
God promised Abraham personally that he and his descendants would posses a certain land forever and walk in it.



Yes, his descendants re:

Rom. 9:6-8.
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

And that land is in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1:3).


Quote:
How does the "unfathomable riches in Christ" help me build waste cities and inhabit and live in them? How does being in Christ help me plant gardens and eat fruit from them?



It is being rescued from the domain of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of God’s beloved Son (Col. 1:13). It is being delivered from this cursed ground where in toil we eat of it all the days of our lives (Gen. 3:17-19) and brought into the Lord Jesus’ banqueting hall. It is having our water turned into wine (John 2).

When the Lord Jesus told the Jews that He is the Bread of Life, the Jews said, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat (John 6)?”


Peter was a Jew. His hope certainly was not some land on this earth.

He wrote that the prophets predicted the sufferings of Christ and the GLORIES to follow (1 Pet. 1:10-12).

This was what he looked for:

2 Pet. 3:13 –
But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Paul was also a Jew. He did not preach that the hope of Israel was some land on this earth. Paul preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ


Quote:
………the original meaning of prophecies as they were given and understood by the hearers of Amos?



Acts 13:27 –
"For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him.


Quote:
………a growing rejection of allegorical prophetical interpretation that



Far from rejecting allegorical interpretation, Paul gave an example of it re: Gal. 4:22-31.



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Jade

 2021/5/2 9:45Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2400


 Re:

I haven't forgotten you good people and some of the replies I intend to make if time permits me. I have just been busy and have not been able to find time as of yet. I'm working on it. My apologies.

Thank you.


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David Winter

 2021/5/3 12:49Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1908


 Re:

Quote:

Heb. 8:13 –
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Comment:
If the Old Covenant is obsolete and has disappeared, wouldn’t everything based on it become obsolete and disappear too?



I am not asking this to challenge you but to genuinely undersstand. Even the preacher whom I hear frequently interprets Heb 8:13 the way you did it.

But no where I read in this verse that OC is disappeared. It only says ready to disappear. That is exactly what obsolete means.

In computer programming languages when a feature is no longer needed or upgraded to a new feature then the old feature will first be marked as obsolete. Which means new programmers are not advised to use it but old old programs written using the feature will still perform well.

This is exactly how I see Heb 8:13 mean. People who still live under OC can continue but God has given something better for people to follow even though he still honors his Old Covenant. God is a covenant honoring God.


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Sreeram

 2021/5/3 13:19Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5832
NC, USA

 Re:

Sree- I am not sure if I understand what you mean.

Did God endorse the OT system as well as the new covenant?

Obviously not, as he destroyed the OT system in 70 AD. He didn’t seem sentimental about it at all.


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Todd

 2021/5/3 15:46Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1908


 Re:

Quote:

Obviously not, as he destroyed the OT system in 70 AD. He didn’t seem sentimental about it at all.



If we use what happened in 70 AD then we can also use what happened during Babylonian exile that happened few hundred years before it.

I cannot find scripturally that God does not honor Old Covenant. Covenant is a contract and God cannot cancel it.

I still believe that God is concerned about Israel. I still believe it is this protection from God that keeps them safe in the midst of hatred from all surrounding Islamic nations.

I believe NC is way higher than OC and God does not want anyone to live under the standard of OC but he does not disown them either.

Again I am not challenging anyother views, but I am just placing my view. I am willing to change if there is a concrete explanation of why people believe OC is abolished.


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Sreeram

 2021/5/3 15:58Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5832
NC, USA

 Re:

Hebrews 8 seems to answer the question unless you are referencing something different when you say “old covenant.”


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Todd

 2021/5/3 16:38Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1908


 Re:

Quote:

Hebrews 8 seems to answer the question unless you are referencing something different when you say “old covenant.”



If you see my response in this threat, I have clearly quoted Heb 8:13 and said it never mentions that OC is abolished. I believe this is a Church teaching that no one questioned and no one cared to check the scripture for proof. It is just an agreed concept. But I do not come from a Church background but a nonChristian background.

To me Old Covenant means God's promise to Israel that he will be their God. He will protect them. If they live according to 10 commandments then God will still honor his promise of physical blessings.

I do believe New Covenant is a higher standard than Old Covenant as much as Jesus is higher than Moses. God does not intend anyone to live under old Covenant. But he still honors his promise.


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Sreeram

 2021/5/3 17:26Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5832
NC, USA

 Re:

//He will protect them. If they live according to 10 commandments then God will still honor his promise of physical blessings.//

Do you think this applies to spiritual blessing or strictly physical?

The thing that bothers me about your statement is that good law-abiding Jews are just as hellbound as those that are entirely secular. The OC does nothing for them.

We all know that many many Jewish people in the US are very successful. I know many. It almost seems that if God “blesses” them for being good religious Jews He is lulling them into false security. Art Katz talked often about how the successful Jewish people are totally anti- Christ.


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Todd

 2021/5/3 17:52Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1908


 Re:

Quote:

Do you think this applies to spiritual blessing or strictly physical?



Except the 10th commandment all other laws under OC are all external and also the blessings are earthly (External) not spiritual. So I clearly cannot comment on the eternal salvation of a God fearing Jew.

Quote:

The thing that bothers me about your statement is that good law-abiding Jews are just as hellbound as those that are entirely secular. The OC does nothing for them.



If this is true then what makes us believe that Moses and David are in heaven?

I believe they were saved looking at Christ who is to come and we are saved looking at Christ who came and took our sins.

So if these Godly men under OC were saved by looking on to coming of Christ then what makes us not to believe that a law abiding and God fearing Jew today can be saved by looking into the Christ who came even though he directly does not confess Jesus?

Quote:

We all know that many many Jewish people in the US are very successful. I know many. It almost seems that if God “blesses” them for being good religious Jews He is lulling them into false security. Art Katz talked often about how the successful Jewish people are totally anti- Christ.



It is a good logic but the same logic can also be applied to God who said he makes the sun shine on both righteous and unrighteous is also luring them into false security!

I still believe the earthly success of Jews is based on God honoring OC. But by doing good God is luring them to accept his complete salvation in Christ. If any Jew is truly fearing God, God will then direct him towards Christ for complete salvation under NC.


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Sreeram

 2021/5/3 18:35Profile





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