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 Re: A Growing Trend Away from Allegorization

Directed not at the good bro TMK directly, but more to the forum at large for a point of possible discussion.

"There are differences between literal and figurative approaches to Scripture and many times the allegorical method has been used to minimize the role played by the Jewish people in the plan of God."

"Typology and allegorical methods of interpretation are used today by a supersessionist approach to the Bible to reject the national and territorial promises of Israel and spiritualize them as being fulfilled in Jesus and the Church."

"Many scholars and theologians are saying there should be a more holistic reading of the Bible in which all of God's promises, including those that speak of the Jewish people and the Land of Israel, are truly fulfilled."

"Today, there is a general agreement among Evangelical theologians and biblical scholars that "spiritual interpretation" as traditionally practiced is not acceptable."

(By Dr. Craig A. Blaising - from "Hermeneutics, Theology, and Church History" - chapter on "Israel and Hermeneutics.")


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David Winter

 2021/4/21 16:29Profile
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 Re:

The fact of the matter is that until Darby in the 19th century Zech 14 was not interpreted literally.

Of course this does not mean that Darby (and his dispensationalist progeny) are not right and every prior commentator was wrong.

But perhaps the more humble approach is to say “I’m not sure,” which is just what Luther said about this chapter.


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Todd

 2021/4/21 21:53Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 843
Australia

 Re:

Quote:
…………… to reject the national and territorial promises of Israel and spiritualize them as being fulfilled in Jesus and the Church."



What do you say to these scripture:

1 Pet. 1:10-12 –
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look.

Luke 24:44-47 –
Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

John 12:40-41 –
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Acts 3:24 —
Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.


The Law was only a shadow of good things to come (Heb. 10:1).

Grace and TRUTH came through Jesus Christ (John 1:17)

The true Jew is the Jew in Christ (Rom. 2:28-29).

The true Israel is the Israel in Christ (Rom. 9:6-18, Gal. 3:29, 4:28).

The true Jerusalem is the New Jerusalem, the bride of Christ (Rev. 21:98-11).

The true temple is the church, the body of Christ (John 1:19-21, Eph. 1:22-23, 2:19-22).


The Old Covenant is obsolete (Heb. 8:13).

The New covenant is the glorious and eternal covenant in Jesus’ blood.


All who belong to Christ are Abraham’s descendants and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:29).


The country Abraham desired was a heavenly and not an earthly one.

Heb. 11:10,16 –
for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God……………But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.


Also, consider:

Heb. 11:40 –
God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.


Quote:
"Today, there is a general agreement among Evangelical theologians and biblical scholars that "spiritual interpretation" as traditionally practiced is not acceptable."



Do we stand on the Bible or on the general agreement among evangelical theologians and biblical scholars?

Do we stand on the wisdom of man or on CHRIST the power of God and the wisdom of God?

John 6:63 –
The words that I speak to you are SPIRIT, and they are life.

John 4:23-24 –
But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. GOD IS SPIRIT, AND THOSE WHO WORSHIP HIM MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.


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Jade

 2021/4/22 3:21Profile
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 Re:

Romans 11:25-27

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Jeremiah 30 Restoration of Israel and Judah

The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 “Thus speaks the Lord God of Israel, saying: ‘Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the Lord. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”

4 Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah.

5 “For thus says the Lord:

‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.

10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord,
‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’

12 “For thus says the Lord:

‘Your affliction is incurable,
Your wound is severe.
13 There is no one to plead your cause,
That you may be bound up;
You have no healing medicines.
14 All your lovers have forgotten you;
They do not seek you;
For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy,
With the chastisement of a cruel one,
For the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased.
15 Why do you cry about your affliction?
Your sorrow is incurable.
Because of the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased,
I have done these things to you.

16 ‘Therefore all those who devour you shall be devoured;
And all your adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
Those who plunder you shall become plunder,
And all who prey upon you I will make a prey.
17 For I will restore health to you
And heal you of your wounds,’ says the Lord,
‘Because they called you an outcast saying:
“This is Zion;
No one seeks her.” ’

18 “Thus says the Lord:

‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the Lord.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”

23 Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord
Goes forth with fury,
A [e]continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the Lord will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.

In the latter days you will consider it.

 2021/4/22 20:47Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 843
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 Re:


Quote:

Jeremiah 30

……… 3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the Lord. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it……



The days that were coming were the days of the New Covenant – Jer. 31:31-34, Heb. 8:7-13.

In the days of the New Covenant, “they would serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them (Jer. 30:9).

Acts 2:38 –
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

This happened in the 1st century AD.


The prophets prophesied of the sufferings of Christ and the GLORIES to follow (1 Pet. 1:10-12).


The land in the New Covenant is Christ.

Ezekiel 37:14 –
"I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.

The Lord Jesus said in John 14:20 –
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.”

“In that day” i.e. the day the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer.

"Christ in you, the hope of glory" -- Col. 1:27.


Quote:
Romans 11:25-27

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.



The hope and promise to Israel in Rom. 11 was not restoration of earthly territory but “life from the dead” (Rom. 11:15).


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Jade

 2021/4/24 10:37Profile
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 Re:

I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. I WILL PLANT THEM IN THEIR LAND, and no longer shall they be pulled up FROM THE LAND I HAVE GIVEN THEM, says the Lord your God. (Amos 9:14-15)

Then they shall DWELL IN THE LAND that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and THEY SHALL DWELL THERE, they, their children, and their children's children, forever;.... (Ezekiel 37:25

In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel WILL DWELL SAFELY; (Jeremiah 23:6)

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from JERUSALEM. (Isaiah 2:2-3)

After their spiritual restoration in Christ first.





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David Winter

 2021/4/24 13:56Profile
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 Re:

Hi Todd. You said

"The fact of the matter is that until Darby in the 19th century Zech 14 was not interpreted literally."

John Gill (1697-1771) had this to say about Zechariah 14:
"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle,.... Meaning not the Romans, in the time of Vespasian, for they were not all nations; nor did a part of the city only go into captivity then, but the whole; nor did any remain in it: it seems right to refer it to the gathering of the kings of the earth to the battle of the Lord God Almighty at Armageddon, Revelation 16:14."


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Nigel Holland

 2021/4/24 19:09Profile
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 Re:

Gill also says that *all* of Mt 24, including vs 29 and following pertain to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, so you will have to pick your poison.


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Todd

 2021/4/24 19:31Profile
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 Re:

I know. My point is Darby didn't invent the doctrine that Zechariah 14 and other passages like it pertain to the literal Second Coming of Christ out of whole cloth. As we can see from church history, sometimes biblical truths can be largely (but never completely) lost.

I just wanted to correct that particular misconception.


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Nigel Holland

 2021/4/24 20:44Profile
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 Re:

The prophecies in Zechariah concerning Christ are believed to have been literally fulfilled or will be in the future. Yet the prophecies regarding Christ returning to Israel, like He promised to do, and the restoration of Israel's place spiritually and physically are seen as allegories that don't really mean what the Holy Spirit through Zechariah meant them to say. It seems a inconsistent method of interpretation.


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David Winter

 2021/4/24 22:45Profile





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