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MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3305
Texas

 Re:

Logic, In my opinion your Church is right on track.

What do you believe about the tribilation and the Rapture?


_________________
Bill

 2005/7/24 20:05Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 How's this?

If it were as some of you say “because of sin we go to hell,” We Christians would go to hell because we still sin even if we repent. Sin is sin and “you go to hell because of sin.”

Now think of it my way for a while, if you will.

I will say sinners go to hell. We go to hell because we are sinners. Not because we sin or because of sin.

I will try going at this from another approach.
If a living being barks like a dog, that doesn’t make it a dog, because a person can bark and even a parrot. But being a dog makes it bark because that is what dogs do. So in turn you’re not a sinner because you sin, you sin because you are a sinner. And again your not a thief because you steel, you steel because you’re a thief.

We are all born sinners. Hypothetically a man lives his whole life without sinning but never accepted that sacrifice of Jesus, along with His resurrection (Saved, Born again). He would still go to hell because he is still a sinner. But if he did accepted that sacrifice of Jesus, along with His resurrection before he dies (he needs not to repent because he never sinned), that would make him a new creation in Christ, born again and no longer a sinner and therefore he will not go to hell when he dies.

Now you and I accepted that sacrifice of Jesus, along with His resurrection and repented from our sins, we are new creations in Christ born again and no longer sinners so therefore we will not go to hell when we die, even if we stumble and sin but get back up.

Remember We go to hell because we are sinners. Not because we sin or because of sin.

 2005/7/24 20:50Profile
Bomar
Member



Joined: 2005/2/8
Posts: 112


 Re: How's this?

According to your doctrine, why do Muslims go to hell, who have never heard? Or Buddhists, or Hindus, or animestic religions?

Not because they don't believe in one they have never heard, but because they are sinners.

As most people have said in one form or another, your theology is bad.

Quote:
He will convict of sin, because they do not believe in me.



Does that say that Jesus convicts of the sin of unbelief? Or, does it say that they will be convicted of sin because they are not believers, or in other words, they will be convicted because they aren't saved? I think the text, and the whole understanding of scripture lends to the latter. I have never seen anyone convicted because they did not believe in Jesus - they usually feel they are justified in their doubts according to the proof which has been offered currently. But I have seen many unbelievers convicted of sins - and they had nowhere to turn, becuase they had not applied the blood of the Savior to themselves..

Quote:
The cities around along with Sodom and Gomorrah where not judged because of there sins but because of there unbelief.



Again, you should not use your own imagination, but scripture:

Quote:
Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit. Ezekiel 16:49-50



It clearly says why God judged them, and it was because of sin.

 2005/7/24 21:49Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
According to your doctrine, why do Muslims go to hell, who have never heard? Or Buddhists, or Hindus, or animestic religions?

Not because they don't believe in one they have never heard, but because they are sinners.



I will disagree. They do believe, But yes they are sinners and that is why I say the you to hell

I say they beleive because GOD sais they do...
Rom 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness (they know the true but supress it);
:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; [u]so that they are without excuse[/u]:
Rom 2:14,15 The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law.
:15 Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them. (paraphrased)

Thenn you then gave a partial scripture:
Quote:
Quote:
He will convict of sin, because they do not believe in me.


I believe you were referring to these verses John 16:7-9 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Then you go on to say

Quote:
Does that say that Jesus convicts of the sin of unbelief? Or, does it say that they will be convicted of sin because they are not believers, or in other words, they will be convicted because they aren't saved? I think the text, and the whole understanding of scripture lends to the latter. I have never seen anyone convicted because they did not believe in Jesus - they usually feel they are justified in their doubts according to the proof which has been offered currently. But I have seen many unbelievers convicted of sins - and they had nowhere to turn, becuase they had not applied the blood of the Savior to themselves..



The holy Spirit Convicts. [u]of sin [/u] Because they don't believe hin him and I've been telling you from the beginnig that sin only brings death, it only kills you. It does not bring you to hell
Genisis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof (sin) thou shalt surely die[/u].
Romans 7:5-13 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of [u]sins[/u], which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto [u]death[/u].
:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans:8-11 But (known) sin, having received an opportunity through the (knowledge of the) commandment, wrought in me all manner of lustful desires. For without the (knowledge of the) law (known) sin was dead.
:9 For I was alive without (knowledge of the) law once: but when (knowledge of the) the commandment came, (known) sin revived, and I [u]died[/u].
:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto [u]death[/u].
:11 For sin, taking oppertunity by the commandment, deceived me, and by [u]it slew me[/u].
:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, [u]working death in me[/u] by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
It says nothing about taking a man to hell but The Scriptures through out the Bible says that because of sin you [u]die[/u]

Quote:
Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit. Ezekiel 16:49-50

It clearly says why God judged them, and it was because of sin.



I agree, but Please reread that in my last post I explaind that they sinned because they are sinners. They are not sinners because they sin.
Sinner is like a title like "electrician" or Chef" when you cook something, that doesn't make you a chef, but if you are a chef, you will automaticaly cook. Your not a sinner because you sin, you sin because you are a sinner. Christians are not sinners because sinners go to hell. When a Christian sins(stumbles) that doesn't make him a sinner. A sinner will automaticaly sin no matter what.

I beg you all, please read back through all my answers in this whole thread and try to understand!

 2005/7/25 16:22Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
What do you believe about the tribulation and the Rapture?



Since this topic is huge and deserves a whole thread by its self, I will keep my answer brief.

The tribulation is in three parts in referring to Revelations, Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls.
You also can divide the tribulation in to two parts: The Time of False Pease with the persecution of the True Church which is the wrath of Satan.
The second part is the Wrath of God. We will be taken up right before the wrath of GOD somewhere but not exactly in mid-trib.

But this is only my [u]opinion [/u]. I hate it when someone teaches his view on the tribulation as fact. If you want to read an excellent view on it go here:
http://www.apocalipsis.org/malcolmsmith11.htm

 2005/7/25 17:01Profile
ellie
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 189
UK

 Re: through all my answers


Quote you wrote:
I beg you all, please read back through all my answers in this whole thread and try to understand!


It has been read, it has been answered, and unless it is agreed with, as to what you believe. You will keep saying that we haven’t got it right, we haven’t read it properly and why can we not understand what you are saying.

It has been understood, it is controversial doctrine.

Myself I would say it is a brainwashing, controversial, Doctrine, that is continually verbally compounded to you.

The only purpose it has to myself is to exhaust me.

When you write these things to Christians who walk with God in the Truth of the scripture and not other peoples own interpretation that deviates from the Truth. You will find that it cannot be agreed with.

I cannot agree to false doctrine, it is against my belief.

Anyone in the whole world can make the scripture into different meanings, stretching it here, pulling it there, until it fits that persons ideology as it would seem your church does. From what I have seen on the website, that you gave to us on your posting.
The set up is nothing that I would, ever enter into. Nothing can persuade me to that Doctrine.

I have given a lot of time to your postings and PM,s to you. And still you seem to not understand that I believe your doctrine to be very damaging.

I pray that God Himself Would Show You, The Truth of Himself and His Word.

ellie

 2005/7/25 17:35Profile
Moriah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/27
Posts: 12


 Re: Eeeekkk!!!

Logic:
I thought you where a heritic, until I saw what you were saying.

Let me further explian what I think you are trying to say:
Our sins are the evidence that God uses against us. If our sins haven't been washed away, then the evidence against us will condemn us on the Day of Judgment.
But, How does God prove that evidence? He uses the Law. What does the Law do? The Law is used to show us that we cannot uphold the law and we are incapable to do it and that we need to be changed from the inside in order to accomplish the Law. The Law not only shows us that we sin, it shows us why we need to be changed most of all. The evidence of sin only compounds the judgment that we already have to start with if we are not changed.

God doesn't only forgive your sins(the evidence against us); He must first forgive who you are first. When God frogives who you are, you are then changed. If He doesn't forgive who you are(dead spiritually) first, you couldn't come into His presence nor able to follow him in your Christian walk(after the spirit). Then He forgives what you do in order for you to stay in His presence.

When we are born, we are spiritually dead and are soulish. Our souls rule our physical bodies. When we become born again, we become spiritually alive(to Christ). Our souls then need to be the servant to our spirits to rule our flesh in a Godly manner. The soul is what we battle everyday, who will rule? Our soulish passion for the flesh(to walk after it) or our spirit to life in Christ which has made me free from the law of sin and death.


_________________
Mick T. Boltzer

 2005/7/28 13:37Profile
MelanieG
Member



Joined: 2005/4/15
Posts: 1


 Re: You don't go to hell becaus of sin!

Logic said "It is like when someone says Jesus died on the cross for us. He didn't. He died on the cross because of us for His Father.
Saying that he died for us is man centered. The other way is Christ centered.
We must get away from the man centered religion!"

I disagree with this a bit. To say that Jesus didnt die for us and instead died because of us is man centered. That is like saying Jesus HAD to die, because of us. Jesus didnt die because he HAD to. But because he WANTED to. Because he LOVED us. He could have anihilated the whole lot of us, and to say that he HAD to die is a bit proud in my opinion. To think that God wasn't capable removing our pitiful, wicked, evil selves from this earth and start over(but instead spared us) is to not believe in an Alimighty, all-powerful, LOVING, SELF SACRIFICING, God.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said. If you could help me to understand it better, I would much appreciate it.

 2005/7/28 14:11Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
I disagree with this a bit.



I will say that I agree with you [u]a bit[/u]

Quote:
That is like saying Jesus HAD to die, because of us. Jesus didn’t die because he HAD to. But because he WANTED to. Because he LOVED us.



You are right in that He didn't have to, but in His love He hade to.
God's infinite Love had to equal His infinite justice.

Quote:
He could have annihilated thee whole lot of us, and to say that he HAD to die is a bit proud in my opinion.



Yes He could have annihilated the whole lot of us but it says in Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
So if He planed on dieing on the cross even before Adams fall and the prophecies about it would show that HE had to So He could fulfill prophecy. So in His love He had to in a sense.

I would like to ask you how does this sound proud?
And, how does the word "because" mean "Had to"?

Anyway, my point was that [u][b]Because [/b][/u] of Adams fall is why Jesus died so that His Father in Heaven can accept us. So, that would mean it was for His Father.
There is a song that got me thinking about this certain subject, and it is why I posted what I said. The name of the song is "Above All"
And part of the song goes like this
"Crucified,
Laid behind the stone;
You lived to die,
Rejected and alone;
Like arose,
Trampled on the ground,
You took the fall,
[u][b]and thought of me above all.[/b][/u]

The last verse of this song is totaly wrong. He thought about His Father and to do His will above all. This song is the man centered Gosple that I will warn about.
I will addmit that it is a beautiful song, but that last verse [u][b]MUST[/b][/u] be cut out.

 2005/7/28 16:23Profile









 Re:

As men, we read the Bible in a "fallen" fashion. Jesus Christ told us--"in the volume of the Book it is written of ME". When you or I read God's Word, we should focus first on Jesus Christ, second on the man who wrote it, and third on ourselves. In this body of flesh and blood that does not always happen. Take for instance the sacrifices of Leviticus. The way God presents the sacrifices, they start with the most important first. God presents them as follows:

1. Peace Sacrifice 2. Meal offering 3. Burnt offering 4. Trespass Offering 5. Sin offering


However, the best way for me or you to understand this sacrificial system is to look at it backwards. If you were an Israelite you were REQUIRED to offer 2 SACRIFICES---1) the SIN SACRIFICE- for our sin nature inherited from Adam and the 2) TRESPASS OFFERING - for our sins, and those of our family, both known sins and unknown sins.

If we wanted a deeper walk with the Lord, we would go to the next level and offer the Burnt offering--this was a VOLUNTARY OFFERING and provided a "Sweet Savor" to the Lord. If we wanted to go deeper, then we would also offer the meal offering with oil on and mixed into it, as well as frankinsense and salt, with no leaven or honey.

If we wanted to go all the way, we would offer the PEACE OFFERING--for a thank, a vow, or a free will offering. This is the only offering that the sinner and his family received any of the animal to eat- and it all had to be eaten within 3 days. After the father of the house leaned into the animal, thus symbolically becoming one with it and transferring his sin into the animal, as well as the sin of his entire family, he would slit it's throat. Then the priest would put the blood on the altar, the horns and the base and place the fat, the inner parts, kidneys and liver on the altar for burning (offering a "sweet savor" to the Lord).
The breast and the shoulder of the animal (a bull, a lamb, or a goat) would be heaved and waved, in the pattern of the CROSS, and given to the Priests to eat. The remainder of the animal was to be eaten by the sinner and his family, within 3 days.

I submit that it only makes sense to us, in our mortal bodies and sinful natures, to understand the Sacrificial System set up by God in the reverse order.

We are only mortal, mud balls down here, and are only saved by our belief in Jesus Christ, and upon His work on Calvary and the Resurrection. We will all make mistakes, but we are judged to be righteous by Christ's works, not our own.

God bless,


Stever

 2005/8/2 2:34





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