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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
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 You don't go to hell becaus of sin!

No one goes to hell because of there sins, but only for rejecting the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection. If they have accepted That sacrifise, along with His resurrection and repent from there sins, are they saved? Yes.

death is not separation from God in Hell because paul said do die is gain. death is separation of body from soul, and you choose where you go.

A person doesn't goes to hell because of sin, He dies because of it, For the wages of sin is death; and if he dies in his sin, then he will go to hell.
Jesus died on the cross for all people and therefor all peoples' sins, even the people who will reject His sacrifice. But that is why they go to hell, not because of sin.

 2005/7/21 21:32Profile
TiltedHalo
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Joined: 2005/7/18
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 Re: You don't go to hell becaus of sin!?

I can agree on one point, that we choose where we go, in a sense.
But I have to say that it is because of sin that we are promised the reward of hell. Yes the wages of sin is death, but you are taking upon a literal definition of "death". We die, because we die which roots in the original sin. Nevertheless, we die when the Soverign Lord decides that His plan for us on His earth is complete. There are consequences for every decision we make, the good, & the bad.
Accepting Jesus' lordship & faith in Him & Him alone will grant us the promise of everlasting life with Him in heaven. Not accepting this gift, & continuing to live in [u]sin[/u] is what demands a debt paid by being completely severed from the communion with God in everlasting purgatory.
I believe it would be a false statement to claim "We don't go to hell because of sin." Yes one will be eternally damned if they rejected the diety of Christ & His saving message of grace, but that would only lead them to continue in sin, therefore, a price must be paid.


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Arnaldo Santiago, Jnr.

 2005/7/21 23:17Profile
TiltedHalo
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 Re: You don't go to hell becaus of sin!

Yes to die is to gain, if you are living in the light of Christ Jesus.


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Arnaldo Santiago, Jnr.

 2005/7/21 23:19Profile
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 Re: You don't go to hell becaus of sin!

Quote:
No one goes to hell because of there sins,


I am sorry to say but your thinking and explaining of hell and sin is very much off-base and not an correct interpretation of the revealed scriptures. The simple fact is that all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. Hell was a place intially made for angels but fallen mankind that go in disobedience from God find their place there also.

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 6-7).

Surely with this above example it is ample to prove that the cities around along with Sodom and Gomorrha where judged and are suffering the "vegeance of eternal fire". Meaning because of their sins, specifically of "fornication" and "strange flesh" (sodomy), they were judged.

Time would fail me to quote numerous other biblical examples.

Quote:
death is not separation from God in Hell because paul said do die is gain. death is separation of body from soul, and you choose where you go.


"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement." (Hebrews 9:27).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11)

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5)

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14-15).

Jesus became sin for us so that we would not die in our sins. And yes people are going to hell without Jesus because their sin is left on them, we must reckon ourself's dead with Christ. Read Romans 5 and 6 for a clear understanding of Christ's death and our salvation.


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 2005/7/22 4:05Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

There is a partial truth to what you are saying: men go to hell because they reject Jesus. However, this key pasage of Scripture teaches that the reason men reject Jesus is because they are sinners, who love their sin. Because of such, they reject Christ. Because of such, they go to hell.

The wages of sin is death. In the day Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they died. Literally taking what God said, they should have dropped dead that very moment. However, in that day, when they became partakers of sin, they did die: spritually. That spiritual death manifested itself in physical death. And if you and I die physically in a state of spiritual death, you and I will enter into eternity in that same spiritual state, death, and live in hell forever and ever.

This is what the Scriptures consistantly teach. I believe what you have done with your statements is to soften the wrath of God that will be revealed from heaven against all sin, because perhaps to you it sounds too harsh, too unloving, too impersonal, and the like. If you are not careful, you could end up in the land of easy-belivism, which is where this doctrine you teach I believe is born.


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Jimmy H

 2005/7/22 6:43Profile
Logic
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 rebuttal: You don't go to hell becaus of sin!

[b]TiltedHalo[/b] says, "But I have to say that it is because of sin that we are promised the reward of hell. Yes the wages of sin is death,

I say, “ you are wrong because the verse clearly says that we are promised the reward of death and not hell.

You say, “But you are taking upon a literal definition of "death".

I say, “of course, Adam and Eve started to begin to die when they ate that fruit, before they ate they were not dieing at all. But It was also a spiritual death also.

You say, “Not accepting this gift, & continuing to live in sin is what demands a debt paid by being completely severed from the communion with God in everlasting purgatory.

I say, “You basically just agreed to my first post in this thread here but I don't believe in purgatory.

[b]Sermonindex Administrator [/b] says, after quoting Jude 6-7, “Surely with this above example it is ample to prove that the cities around along with Sodom and Gomorrah where judged and are suffering the "vengeance of eternal fire". Meaning because of their sins, specifically of "fornication" and "strange flesh" (sodomy), they were judged.”

I say, “Since you are using an Old Testament referral we must see how the Old Testament Saints were saved. Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” The cities around along with Sodom and Gomorrah where not judged because of there sins but because of there unbelief.

You say after quoting me," Hebrews 9:27 and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

I say, “ That word does not mean condemn but in Greek krisis {kree'-sis} to 1) a separating, like at a trial, or contest; 2) selection with an opinion or decision given concerning anything esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong .“ So it is the judging the righteous and the wicked each have there own judgment. The righteous are judged at the Beema seat and the wicked at the White Throne of Judgment.

You quoted Revelation 20:14-15, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

I say, “they were cast out because there name was not found written in the book of life and not because of sin. Your name gets written in it when you accept That sacrifice, along with His resurrection and repent from your sins.

You Said, “Jesus became sin for us so that we would not die in our sins. And yes people are going to hell without Jesus because their sin is left on them, we must reckon our self’s dead with Christ. Read Romans 5 and 6 for a clear understanding of Christ's death and our salvation.

I say, “To die IN our sins we will go to hell not Because of them.

[b]KingJimmy[/b]says after quoting John 3:18-20,” There is a partial truth to what you are saying: men go to hell because they reject Jesus. However, this key passage of Scripture teaches that the reason men reject Jesus is because they are sinners, who love their sin. Because of such, they reject Christ. Because of such, they go to hell.

I say, “the Scripture does not teach that the reason men reject Jesus is because they are sinners It is because the hate the Light and hate the Truth! If what you say is true, then no one would be saved because all are sinners. The wicked are not judged because of sin but because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

You said, “The wages of sin is death. In the day Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they died. Literally taking what God said, they should have dropped dead that very moment. However, in that day, when they became partakers of sin, they did die: spiritually. That spiritual death manifested itself in physical death. And if you and I die physically in a state of spiritual death, you and I will enter into eternity in that same spiritual state, death, and live in hell forever and ever.

I say, “I completely understand all this, please read my thread “Origin of sin & death” in the Scriptures and Doctrine section.

You said, “This is what the Scriptures consistently teach. I believe what you have done with your statements is to soften the wrath of God that will be revealed from heaven against all sin, because perhaps to you it sounds too harsh, too unloving, too impersonal, and the like. If you are not careful, you could end up in the land of easy-belivism, which is where this doctrine you teach I believe is born.

I say, “I did not soften the wrath of God that will be revealed from heaven against all sin. Because I still acknowledge that people go to hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm (conscience) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. I do not think that it is to harsh too unloving, too impersonal, and the like because I accept the reality of it no matter how God puts it, People do go to hell. It is not easy-belivism Because I tell the unsaved They will go to hell if they don’t accepted That sacrifice, along with His resurrection and repent from there sins, I am not once saved always saved which easy-belivism is found. Prove to me how this Doctrine leads in that way.

 2005/7/22 17:05Profile
ellie
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Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 189
UK

 Re: You don't go to hell becaus of sin!

DID YOU ASK GOD ?


When I read your postings, I get this terrible feeling in my spirit.

It also seems as if you are re-writing the Bible.

It is definitely an Affront to God, the things that you state to us as being 'it'

I am quite sure that you do not have God's approval.

Did you ask him if all the statements you are making are true? Did you ask him if it was ok to make the statements in public?

We have a saying, which is:
"He has put the Cat among the Pigeons" do you know what this means?

God and Jesus are not a game to be played with. He is watching looking and listening to you. We need to verify with him before..... Well there is a lot I could say but I am not going to.

I get the feeling that you are a controversial person.

I have said all these things as your posts disturb me and this is my answer to all of them and any further postings. The only purpose I can see is that I myself would suffer from exhaustion answering at length statements that I find distasteful, and a waste of precious time. You might say well you don’t have to answer them that would be correct. The thing is I see the postings question, which also disturbs me, and I looked for this very reason.



ellie

 2005/7/22 17:33Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

.

Quote:
I have said all these things as your posts disturb me and this is my answer to all of them and any further postings. The only purpose I can see is that I myself would suffer from exhaustion answering at length statements that I find distasteful, and a waste of precious time. You might say well you don’t have to answer them that would be correct. The thing is I see the postings question, which also disturbs me, and I looked for this very reason.



My only wish here is to chalenge the Saint in looking deeper into the Doctorines of Scripter, and if I am in erore my hope is to be shown the truth. I love to listen to my critics because they have a reason for there statements. But I want my critics to show me why they are saying what they do. it makes for good conversation too.

Please read My posts "The Origin of Sin & Death" and "Seeking Jesus, Knowing His will." and see more of my "doctorines" and you will see that I am very conservitive in my views.

If anyone can pesuade me to there view I will gladly accept it. But all I read is missunderstandings of what I am saying. When People are right, I agree to them and cannot give a rebuttle, but when I can give a rebuttle it shows that I am explaing there mistake of what I have said

 2005/7/22 17:47Profile
ellie
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Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 189
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 Re: God Wants You For His purpose...Be challenged. Talk to Him...

I still feel very much in my spirit that it is cat and mouse.

There are many subjects that can be debated.

And as I said in the PM Post Message to you the other day. It is God you need to seek on this not getting me "Say", to spend precious time, hours upon hours which are not necessary and I can assure you any time in the day, that I have, is precious time and not to be wasted.

God showed me His truth by his Holy Spirit when he Miraculously came into my life in my own home I was not attending any church. He is the one who you should be asking. And also what I wrote on the thread is, Ask for his permission about you belief. This is what we are supposed to do as Christians. None of your statements make sense to me they are alien.

You have to give your whole self to him; your whole life and he in return will give you a new life in him.
The thought of that used to frighten me; I used to think how do you give your life up, won't it be the end, like oh! no! It will be dull.
Oh! how I should have done it sooner, what he gives back is so wonderful. And then there is the refining, which does not end. But can be painful in the beginning. To be truly his and to receive the Holy Spirit we have to not keep, a few bits of our self, to our self. He needs all. I am still handing over self at times.

Look to him and listen to him in your heart, spirit, being, mind, etc.

And then come back with a wonderful testimony of How God changed your thought patterns and filled you with all truth and awe of him.

You seem to be very well educated.
And you could Post wonderful debates on Gods Word and Truth

God Loves You…. He see’s your heart and mind


ellie

 2005/7/22 18:52Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I have said all these things as your posts disturb me and this is my answer to all of them and any further postings. The only purpose I can see is that I myself would suffer from exhaustion answering at length statements that I find distasteful, and a waste of precious time. You might say well you don’t have to answer them that would be correct. The thing is I see the postings question, which also disturbs me, and I looked for this very reason.


I agree with sister Ellie, these forums are primarly for the edification of the body. Really its for people who are seeking after truth not defending their belief system and stating facts. These forums are not the best place to debate and look for controversy. But rather a place to come alongside each other and seek the face of Jesus.


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 2005/7/22 19:11Profile





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