| Poster | Thread | TMK
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| | Re: | | Yes those Pharisees and Sadducees were so touchy.
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Todd
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|  2021/3/4 11:53 | Profile | makrothumia
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| | Re: A verse to consider | | Hello Sree,
Thanks for the stimulating question. Have you considered the verse in Mark where Jesus said "and if you stand praying and remember that you have something against your brother, forgive."?
As I was pondering the thread, this verse came to mind and I do not think it has been considered yet, unless I overlooked it.
mak
the verse is Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins
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Alan and Dina Martin
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| | 2021/3/4 14:54 | Profile | Sree
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| | Re: | | Quote:
Thanks for the stimulating question. Have you considered the verse in Mark where Jesus said "and if you stand praying and remember that you have something against your brother, forgive."?
As I was pondering the thread, this verse came to mind and I do not think it has been considered yet, unless I overlooked it.
I belive the base verse is Matt 5:23 - 23 Therefore, if you are presenting your [n]offering at the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your [o]offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your [p]offering.
So here Jesus is telling us to reconcile with our brother if we know that he has been offended by us. So this is the responsibility of every believer to make sure they do not offend their fellow brothers. A brother who missed this opportunity and has willfully offended his fellow brother is living in Sin. Instead of just forgiving him plainly we are commanded to confront him first. The order is so clearl in Luke 17.
Luke 17 - 3:- 3 Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
We are to forgive our brothers only when they repent. So there is no forgiving while we rebuke them.
We all see this as a harsh treatment of a fellow brother by not forgiving them. But see this way, we are more concerned about their eternal well being than their earthly rebuke. Hence we are prepared to rebuke our brother of their sins and then forgive them when they repent. We are actually showing our brother that they have missed to obey Mattew 5:23, hence they cannot come into the presence of God.
Mark 11:25, is also in the same context as how our father in heaven forgives us. He forgives us when we repent, so we should also be willing to forgive our brothers when they repent.
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Sreeram
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| | 2021/3/4 17:47 | Profile | makrothumia
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| | Re: | | Dear Sree,
It seems that you are almost persuaded already, which is not an issue with me at all.
When I read Jesus’s words in Mark 11:25 -I see that I am to forgive on the spot anything I have against anyone” . I certainly appreciate the relationship you have brought forth between repentance and forgiveness.
I will take Jesus at His words that if while I am praying, anything that comes to my mind about anyone who has sinned against me in any way - I am to forgive them before I continue in prayer.
That is how I understand our Lord’s words spoken here since he is speaking about the prayer of faith.
Mak
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Alan and Dina Martin
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| | 2021/3/4 18:53 | Profile | TMK
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| | Re: | | I think I am in agreement with Mak.
Forgiveness is something we do for ourselves. Jesus did not require the soldiers crucifying him to repent before he forgave them.
Requiring repentance seems to obviate the need to forgive. I mean if someone comes back crawling with tears saying they are sorry it would take a monstrous person to not forgive them.
It is tougher to forgive before there is any repentance. Even tougher is not to be offended in the first place.
Sree, you seem to be conflating forgiveness and fellowship. I can forgive an unrepentant offender but that does not mean I must fellowship with him until he changes his ways.
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Todd
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| | 2021/3/4 19:09 | Profile | TMK
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| | Re: | | Havok wrote:
//I have a feeling the reason why so little care and concern is given by the church as a whole to people aborting their children, the prevelance of pornography in our country, the incredibly prominent sex-trafficking industry in our country, the vulgar humor that is allowed, the sex-crazed TV shows, the horrifically promiscuous education given to children, the codification of no-fault divorce, the materialism, etc, etc, etc that we see even in our own midst is because a bunch of Christians are walking around "not offended."
I think we need to be more offended at these things.//
I am talking about personal offenses, not the broad evil at large in the world. It is obvious we are to hate evil.
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Todd
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| | 2021/3/4 19:12 | Profile | havok20x
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| | Re: | | Sree,
I think Mark 11:25, the way that David acted toward Saul, and even several of the Psalms are proof in the pudding that God expects us to forgive, even without repentance on the other party's side.
Let me ask you this: what would happen if the brother never repented and you never saw them again? Do you get to harbor unforgiveness in your heart for all of eternity? Do you get to remain angry at them forever? I think the unanimous testimony of Scriptures answers that.
I mean think about this: how many times have people on sermon index offended one another, unintentionally? It's happened to me. I have forgiven. I thank God that, it seems, if I have offended anyone, they've forgiven me. |
| | 2021/3/5 8:22 | Profile | Sree
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| | Re: | | Quote:
Let me ask you this: what would happen if the brother never repented and you never saw them again? Do you get to harbor unforgiveness in your heart for all of eternity? Do you get to remain angry at them forever? I think the unanimous testimony of Scriptures answers that.
You and I and most posters here agree that we are commanded to confornt our brothers when they sin against us. The order of this conforting in Luke 17:4 is clearly saying to forgive only when the brother repents. If he does not repent then he is like an unbeliever to me, I forgive him just like how I forgive any unbeliever who has sinned against me but I do not consider him a brother. In the context of the Church, such a person is put out.
As person who came to Jesus from another faith, I have sufferred perseuction from the hands of unbelievers. But God's grace, I was able to forgive them all instantenously, like how Jesus forgave those Romans who crucified him. But a brother who is doing evil to us is different.
The subject of this post is forgiving our brothers not unbelievers so we cannot bring verses into picture where Jesus spoke about forgiveness in general. When it comes to forgiving our brothers who sinned against us, Jesus is clearly asking us to forgive only when they repent.
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Sreeram
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| | 2021/3/5 12:19 | Profile | havok20x
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| | Re: | | Edited out everything that was very pointed and argumentative, which was the whole post.
Sree,
If you've already read my previous post, I do apologize. Let me ask you to read this article:
https://www.gotquestions.org/withholding-forgiveness.html
And see if you agree with what it is saying. If it is, I can continue this discussion, now having common definitions.
Thanks
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| | 2021/3/5 12:27 | Profile | Sree
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| | Re: | | Quote:
I think the problem here is how we are defining what forgiveness is.
So, sree, what does "forgiveness" mean regarding one person to another?
This is a very good question. I am still thinking how best I can answer this question.
Heb 8:12 - For I will be merciful toward their wrongdoings,
And their sins I will no longer remember
God cannot forget our sins, nor can we forget the sins that people did against us. But when God forgives our sins, he chooses not to remember our sins. He looks at us as if we have never sinned (Justification).
So if we are to forgive a brother who has hurt us then we should choose not to remember their sins against us. If we are choosing not to remember them then how can we confront them of their sins against us like how Jesus commanded us in Luke 17:4 and in Matthew 18?
Like I said before we see the condition of unforgiveness as a negative thing alone. See the positive side of it, you are able to win a brother who has sinned against you. If he never repents he is going to suffer loss. So it is better to confront them than just trying to be mister nice guy!
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Sreeram
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| | 2021/3/5 12:29 | Profile |
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