Thank you for reasoning with me🙏🏻
It is itself a blessing to share the spirit of unity even (and especially) when we may approach it with different points in focus. Often times the definitions we ascribe to certain terms are influenced by our own experience and expectations and as things become more generalized they become more abstract, convoluted and apt to misunderstanding, so to that end I am grateful for your making distinction between the office and the gift and we agree on more than not.

You write;
/ I do believe though that prophetic ministers should be recognized and come to maturity and fruition within the body of Christ in a local assembly. I don't believe NT prophets have the okay to just wander about on their own in the body of Christ giving words here and there with no judging or accountability to anyone taking place./

Yes but ;)
We have to be careful about making this a “law” within the body at large, wether literal or implied by an unspoken compliance.
Often times when we miss, we attempt to fix it by gaining control yet that only serves to further entangle us, as we now are playing God by essentially taking His role as Head of the body.
No one is above the head and as such we the body should not be attempting to “steady the ark” with internal regulatory agencies in an effort to control the head...
We should yield individually and corporately to the head and allow the foundations of the church to be active and by that I mean to say stop resisting the reality of the 5 fold ministry and it’s essential role in the will of God .

A good example of this is brother Art Katz,... his conversion and baptism in the spirit took place far beyond the reach of elders, deacons, church boards, denominational jurisdictions and superintendents,... outsider their control, God was faithful to complete a transaction between someone who did know Him on behalf of one who did not yet know Him. Some people gave what they had to a willing heart, and what they had was Christ ✝️
The Lord, as you know, used Art as a sort of traveling prophet,...who by invitation often gave a word of correction to the body ;)

So while I agree community between the “two movements” should have order, that order should come from the Lord not the church.

(For me) the five fold is the military operation in the spiritual war we were born into. The elders, deacons, pastors are administrative operations within the local bodies as well as corporately. These two are over and against one another always vying for the power that comes from a following of men .... what we should be doing is competing in our following the Lord, keeping the closest step with Him, that is our race, no? Then He is the head of His body.

Edit to add ; the great commission is to go into the world and preach the gospel, we somehow have turned that into go into the church and preach the gospel over and over to the same people 🤷🏽‍♂️
Apostles and Prophets are instrumental as they are the foundation of the administration, without them in place you don’t have a living church without a living foundation. So while obviously there are tricksters and charlatans (there always will be) we have no concern for that for we have the mind of Christ and the light of His presence to see and know who is or is not from Him 😇
He can’t deny Himself and the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ ~

_________________
Fletcher

“An amazing thing occurred. After just 2 days, all of their nightmarish politically charged dreams ceased.
They all slept soundly and had sweet dreams. ”

Amen Sister!


God does indeed Give dreams, but why would Christians spend hours getting news from a news media that is under the control of the powers of darkness?

When I learned to turn off the boob tube, the anger and strife was replaced with the peace of God.

We are to set our minds on the things that are above. The fiery darts of the enemy cannot hit the believer whose life is hid in Christ, and who puts on the whole armor of God. We are more than conquerors Through Him that loved us.

_________________
Mike

I've been reading through this thread tonight which gave me pause to consider what I've been reading.

There were several topics on SermonIndex between November and now regarding the various people who gave public "prophetic" utterances regarding the election. Many of those "prophetic" words predicted an outcome that never came to pass.

Before and after the election, many people sent me video links to those "words." Yet, I never watched a single one of them. I was certainly interested in watching them. I was certainly interested in knowing what other people thought of them too. However, I couldn't bring myself to watch even one of them.

Oddly enough, I voted for President Trump. I wanted him to win the election. This was primarily for reasons of policy. After all, my faith was not in President Trump.

Despite the fact that I voted for him and wanted him to serve another four years (and wanting the party of abortion, LGBTQ, pro-China, anti-faith, anti-Israel, etc. to lose), I realize the futility of trusting in men or even institutions. In fact, it would be futile to trust in the words of any men -- including "men of God." Our faith should ONLY be in Christ alone.

Still, I wanted for President Trump to be reelected. In fact, I have performed post-election statistical analysis and I'm quite convinced that there was widespread fraud that happened in the election. The math just doesn't make any sense and defies every election norm.

Yet, even in all the confusion and likely fraud, it is interesting to note that God allowed all of this to happen. This happened despite the "prophetic" words uttered prior to (and even after) the election. Does this make those individuals "false prophets," "charlatans" or just people who "got it wrong?"

Recently, my wife and I read through the first five books of the Bible during our morning devotions. In fact, we just finished the Book of Joshua today.

One name popped out several times throughout our reading: Balaam the son of Beor.

From the time that "Balaam" is first mentioned in Numbers chapter 22, his name is referenced fairly often in the Bible. In fact, his name appears 66 times. He is referenced in ten different passages after his story was told in Numbers 22-24.

When you read his story in those initial chapters, it is difficult to make out just what his sin was. He was solicited by Balak, the king of Moab. Balak knew that Moses and the Israelites were rapidly approaching the land that was promised to Abraham. He knew that God was with them.

It was Balak's desire that Balaam -- known for his "gift" -- would curse Israel. Yet, each time that Balaam spoke, the words that he spoke blessed Israel. Balak was frustrated by this turn of events. Eventually, he returned to his homeland.

It isn't until later in the Bible that we understand what this great "error of Balaam" actually was.

We discover through other references to Balaam that he was something of a "prophet for hire." He was recognized as a "soothsayer" with a gift of "divination." He was solicited by Balak to utter a curse.

In Numbers 24, it states that God spoke to Balaam (and vice versa). God warned Balaam not to go with the men sent by Balak. The men from Balak pressed him to go with them and curse Israel. Yet, Balak replied, "If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more" (Numbers 22:18).

So far, this almost seems commendable.

Eventually, Balaam consulted the Lord yet again and the Lord permitted him to go with those men -- but told Balaam to only utter what He (the Lord) told him. Yet, the Lord was angry that Balaam was going (Numbers 22:22). Later, we read that Balaam uttered the blessings over Israel (to Balak's dismay).

It isn't until later that we discover that all of these "words" that were blessings were inconsequential to the evil of Balaam's error.

We learn in Numbers 31 that Balaam was actually responsible for the sexual promiscuity that came after Israel was tempted by foreign women (and the subsequent plague). Apparently, Balak realized that God wasn't going to curse Israel through Balaam's mouth, but that he could entice Israel to curse themselves through immorality.

Consider the following verses about Balaam:

_________________
Christopher

Hi Abideinhim,
I suppose God doesnt heal people these days either or deliver people from demons or any of that supernatural stuff as well as not giving dreams and visions.

Maybe you can rule out all the other scripture too as well as ACTS 2 17 .What else do you want to take out and ignore as the word of God??

Carter Conlon and all of SI Videos and many other Christian ministries are on Youtube and they are not under the power of Darkness.Paul and Peter would definitely used youtube if they had that tool in their day,
urs staff

Hi Chriss,
From my point of view no Christian Trump supporters i have interacted with put their faith in Donald Trump or any man but they recognised and discerned the spirit of Antichrist behind Joe Biden and the Democratic Party and they recognised that God clearly put Trump in office which was a mircale on the eve of the 2016 election.
Their are many reasons why people Prophesied a Trump win and didnt come to pass YET!
Unfortunately you didnt differentiate these and threw everything that you saw only with ur natural eyes into one lump.
1 False prophets trying to exploit as usual
2 Christians who prophesied and looked at everything from mans timeline
3 Christians who are still saying that the election results will be overturned and Donald Trump will be President this term
4 Christians who think God is not finished with the election fraud and the Anti Christ Spirit behind the election and has something planned for his glory.I put myself in this category.

Remember Chriss through the human point of view of Martha and Mary Lazarus was dead and buried and that was that but through Jesus's point of view his death was for the glory of God.So what I am saying Chriss is you are putting ur trust in Man yourself ,the man your putting trust in is your own natural view which looks at the news(like all of us) and decided that God is finished with the elections etc before Jesus has had his say,
To everyone else,
Cant we at least wait for Jesus to come to the funeral before we decide that this thing is over and done ?

urs staff

/Yes but ;)
We have to be careful about making this a “law” within the body at large, wether literal or implied by an unspoken compliance.
Often times when we miss, we attempt to fix it by gaining control yet that only serves to further entangle us, as we now are playing God by essentially taking His role as Head of the body.
No one is above the head and as such we the body should not be attempting to “steady the ark” with internal regulatory agencies in an effort to control the head...
We should yield individually and corporately to the head and allow the foundations of the church to be active and by that I mean to say stop resisting the reality of the 5 fold ministry and it’s essential role in the will of God./

I don't believe trying to fix is an attempt to gain control or trying to play God. Far from it. It's been my experience that many have used that as an excuse - "Who are you to play God and try and correct me? I answer only to God." That's true in the ultimate sense, in that we in the end are going to stand before God and not man, yet God has placed ministries within a body full of men. They go together in my view. I don't believe steadying the ark with "internal regulatory agencies" is the right term or concept to use in this matter. The local church and its leaders are charged with doing such. I don't see the term as correct in what I am trying to get at. I'm trying to word this reply correctly and aren't sure I am succeeding. At any rate, I'm not picking at anyone or you. I pray it doesn't come across as fighting words.

/A good example of this is brother Art Katz,... his conversion and baptism in the spirit took place far beyond the reach of elders, deacons, church boards, denominational jurisdictions and superintendents,... outsider their control, God was faithful to complete a transaction between someone who did know Him on behalf of one who did not yet know Him. Some people gave what they had to a willing heart, and what they had was Christ ✝️
The Lord, as you know, used Art as a sort of traveling prophet,...who by invitation often gave a word of correction to the body ;)/

I've never shared this before because it didn't seem necessary and I was probably a bit afraid to share it for fear of how it might look. But I live about 23 miles from where Brother Art is buried and I go to home group and Sunday church with people who used to be part of and reside at the Ben Israel community Brother Art founded. That's not in any way to sound any trumpet or whatever before me, just to let you know. So I am well acquainted with Brother Art and his ministry. I'm still sure that the Lord led me from Florida to this part of Minnesota. My association with these brethren has been a intricate part of my stay here. That's all on that.

If I remember correctly, Art did come into the faith in the way you describe. A lot of us did. However, Art eventually became a part of a local body and held himself accountable and under mutual oversight. At the Ben Israel community, he was submitted to other ruling elders and opened himself to their input and even correction if need be. Art was sort of a wandering prophet as you say (he said he was God's utility man willing to do whatever needed doing) but he never travelled as a lone minister unconnected to anyone anywhere. His community of fellow believers and elders always knew where he was going next, prayed with him about it, and laid hands on him and sent him when he travelled in the States and abroad.

If you remember, it was Art who said regarding the prophetic movement I think it was that a long history and time of no mutual submission, oversight, and correction was a major reason why the church and this "movement" had gotten us to the sorry state it had come to. And it has even gone on during the years since Art passed and now look what is upon us.

As an aside, one thing I noticed about Jeremiah Johnson and that reminded me of Art to a degree was JJ was not just talking about events or things or trends or whatever. He also spoke about the motives and intentions of the heart in a way like Art used to. To me, I have always considered that as part of the prophetic ministry. It unveils the heart and brings correction in our inner man and what motivates us to do what we do. I believe the prophetic ministry involves more than just predicting future events, it also involves speaking to the inner life of the church.

/(For me) the five fold is the military operation in the spiritual war we were born into. The elders, deacons, pastors are administrative operations within the local bodies as well as corporately. These two are over and against one another always vying for the power that comes from a following of men .... what we should be doing is competing in our following the Lord, keeping the closest step with Him, that is our race, no? Then He is the head of His body./

Those are good words in my opinion. I can receive them.

/Edit to add ; the great commission is to go into the world and preach the gospel, we somehow have turned that into go into the church and preach the gospel over and over to the same people 🤷🏽‍♂️/

We were discussing this last night in our home group. It causes a bit of pain within me as I consider a day when I always looked for people to witness to outside of the church. Maybe this time or this era of "reset" for the church will cause some of us to get back to that.

/Apostles and Prophets are instrumental as they are the foundation of the administration, without them in place you don’t have a living church without a living foundation. So while obviously there are tricksters and charlatans (there always will be) we have no concern for that for we have the mind of Christ and the light of His presence to see and know who is or is not from Him 😇/

Apostles and prophets are surely foundational but accountability and willingness to let others judge prophetic words is essential also. It can be done in a balanced and scriptural way I believe that doesn't over steady the ark. In my opinion, the prophetic fiasco surrounding this election and the disappointment and confusion it has brought is a good indication that little accountablility has been taking place.

Good bro, I hope and pray I have answered you in a non combative way. We agree on a bunch. I know that. I hear what you are saying and if we disagree here and there I don't consider us to be fighting. We are just talking and I didn't drop any big names as a way to bring attention to myself in any way. It wouldn't work anyway if I did.

Keep talking at me. I have enjoyed it. I hope I haven't been overly long.

Blessings.

_________________
David Winter

Staff,

You got your 4 days. Now brother, you are demanding an indeterminate amount of time. Is this not wrong?

The nature of prophecy in the Bible has never been so degraded, so vague, or so ridiculous as that which I see here in our day. If these men who claim to be prophets had such hard-to-interpret/hard-to-get-right prophesies, dreams, etc in the OT days they would have been stoned to death (assuming a godly populace). Many "prophets" today have the luxury of living under a system in which they won't be stoned to death (much like the false prophets who wreaked havoc on Israel). They can be slick with their words (avoiding saying anything specific at all) and can pretend to apologize in order to recover their following.

Frankly, as a man who believes that God does indeed display His power, that God does indeed work through His people, and that God does indeed work in the world today, I am calling this baloney. These men have all the hallmarks of false prophets. They are liars. The are deceivers. They are spots in our love feasts.

I don't say that lightly. There has bene so much biblical evidence from godly people on this forum about these men that show their errors! Even from people who have no problem whatsoever with prophesy, and yet, we continue to make an issue over this.

The Lord is handing our nation over to what it wants--wickedness. He might not show up to the funeral, but He will show up as the executioner at the gallows!

The only hope we have is the Gospel, men. The only hope we have is Christ and Him crucified. The loss of Trump (which I thoroughly believe was an illegitimate loss) is not God testing us. Our obedience to the Word of God in light of the difficulties we are facing now is the test. I see more wrangling over words, more brewing of civil war, and more hatred for others now than I have ever seen in my entire life--and that among believers! It reminds me of the words of Jesus "the love of many will grow cold."

Let us obey, humbly, the Word of God. Let us love one another as Christ has loved us. Let us meet together, seek the Lord together, and commit ourselves to spreading the Gospel everywhere we can!

This idea that Trump will still be President at some point is not from God.

For every person who has had a dream or a word I say
follow the NT. Bring it to your church. Have it tested against the scriptures. Have it tested against the multitude of counselors as installed in that local church. If it is rejected, submit to that judgment in silence. If you are still convinced of the rightness of what you say was given from God, He will be faithful and patient while you seek Him for understanding. Ask Him “Is this something that I received from You and if so, given that I am submitting to the judgment of Your local body that I’m incorrect, I will wait from clear explicit and instruction from You before I utter a word of it publicly and then only in the time, place and audience of Your instruction.”

_________________
Tim

Hi Havok,
The 4 days are not up ,this has not played out yet.
You asked and now you cant accept the answer.
I wont get boxed in to your timeline and will go with Gods Timeline.Jesus didnt get boxed in by Martha or Marys unbelief and I wont get boxed in by it either.

I said my piece on False Prophets and have said that Jeremiah Johnson should step down at the start of the post.

Your post hasnt been humble and shows no love to one another as Christ loved us.What gospel are you spreading ?"The gospel of persecution" or the gospel of grace?

Your Qoute
"Let us obey, humbly, the Word of God. Let us love one another as Christ has loved us. Let us meet together, seek the Lord together, and commit ourselves to spreading the Gospel everywhere we can!"

urs staff

Hi staff,

I think that you misunderstood my post. I didn't mention the specificities of those "prophets" at all (other than those who said that Trump would be reelected specifically in November).

Rather, my post was addressing the danger of hanging on the words of individuals at all. If you think that this is somehow equates to putting my trust in, well, myself, then let me reassure you. While I know that I love God more than anything, I don't "trust" myself at all. This is because that I know myself better than anyone other than my Creator.

During one of the SermonIndex revival conferences, I remember hearing Paul Washer mention that he wouldn't trust a young man being alone with his daughter. His reason? He said that this was because he doesn't trust himself.

That's not to say that Pastor Washer is afraid of what he WOULD do, but aware of the flaws of humanity in what he COULD do. It wouldn't be an indictment of a young man who wants to spend time with his daughter but an indictment of the flaws of mankind inflicted upon anyone with a sinful nature.

One of my go-to messages on SermonIndex is by David Wilkerson entitled HOLY GROUND. This message was shared at a Christian workers conference hosted by Youth With A Mission (YWAM).

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=336

In this message, Wilkerson highlighted the moment that Moses stood before the Burning Bush on Mt. Sinai. At one point, God told Moses to put his hand into his bosom.

"And the Lord said unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom; and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow..." (Exodus 4:6).

Wilkerson expounded on this by saying:

_________________
Christopher