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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Views of the Atonement

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havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 893
Pineville, LA

 Views of the Atonement

What are some resources that you have found that you feel give an excellent illustration/explanation of the atonement.

What parts did you like best?

These can be sermons, pictures, verbal illustrations, books, a passage of Scripture, etc.


My favorite is actually found on a recent documentary called "American Gospel: In Christ Alone." It does a phenomenal job of explaining the atonement views and showing the validity of several of them when discussed in tandem with one another. Of course it seeks to dispel falsity, but I think the illustrations it uses, the explanations given, etc are well worth the cost of watching it.

You can find it on Amazon, I believe.

 2021/2/15 12:08Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2398


 Re: Views of the Atonement

Passage of scripture - Isaiah 52:13-53:12.

Penal substitution is where I come down.

Blessings.


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David Winter

 2021/2/15 12:13Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 893
Pineville, LA

 Re:

I wholly agree docs. I love that passage of Scripture. That movie I mentioned really explains the validity of Penal Substitutionary Atonement and that it is indeed the superior view because it answers the objections and emphases of the other views.

In the spirit of the OP, what things about that passage really stick out to you? What do you love about it?

 2021/2/15 12:15Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2398


 Re:

Well good bro, I'm a bit busy right now. But I will try and get back to you soon, maybe later today. Wish I had time right now but got a few things to do.

Thank you.


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David Winter

 2021/2/15 12:19Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1176
Germany NRW

 Re: Views of the Atonement

moved over from Post "In Christ alone"
|
I love this song, and we sing it at home often, but I also do not quite agree with the statement

"The wrath of God was satisfied"

I know I might get accused of slaughering a holy cow, but I think this sentence deserves a closer look. I

It sounds a bit like God's anger was appeased as his son was crucified and he was gleefully satisfied when his son suffered and died, like we feel satisfaction when a criminal is caught, convicted and brought to justice.

Jesus took it upon himself to take the punishment for all sin, the father did not force him, but knew his Son would do it. God the Father and Christ suffered ultimate sorrow and pain apart from each other for a moment. Christ was servered from his father and Father God could not behold his own son who was separated from Him as He became sin.

I believe God was not even angry at Jesus enemies at the moment they betrayed, tortured, mocked and crucified his son, otherwise Christ would have been angry at them, too. We know that because Jesus and the father were not yet separated at the time and he still beheld the face of his father.

Jesus healed Malchus ear, attested Pilate that he had less sin than those who delivered him and left his torturers the chance to believe in him even after death, as in the case of the Roman centurion. Hanging on the cross he waited for the dying thief coming to himself, and did not bother to pronounce judgment on the other thief who scorned him.

God's anger was released and sealed upon his enemies the moment they refused to believe in and repent towards his son. Still this anger is delayed and is kept for the lake of fire.

I know the concerns of the OP, and I share them. There is a tendency in liberal circles to do away with God's wrath, hell, and punishment for sin and we must present these truths as they have been written in the bible.

Still statements like
"The wrath of God was satisfied"
or "God punished Jesus instead of us" are not a good representation of what actually happened.


 2021/2/15 13:24Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 893
Pineville, LA

 Re:

Thank you so much narrowpath for bringing your response to this thread. I really appreciate it.

In light of your previous response, what is your interpretation of Isaiah 53, particularly verse 10?

Your view of the phrase "the wrath of God was satisfied" seems to be reminiscent of those who are against a doctrine they term "Cosmic Child Abuse."

Edited to be more conversational.

 2021/2/15 13:34Profile
JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1532
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Views of the Atonement

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision BY faith, and uncircumcision THROUGH faith. (Emphasis mine)

These two words indicate an interesting distinction the apostle (Holy Spirit) was providing regarding the law;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


What are the thoughts on this matter as it relates to the atonement?
Also does anyone here on SI believe that Jesus “died for you” ?

Over the years that be noted that these two things weigh heavily (knowingly or unknowingly) on a persons development and subsequent conclusions on the nature and veracity of the atonement-


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Fletcher

 2021/2/15 13:59Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1176
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 Re:

Dear havok,

I think we just differ on nuances, but not in principle.

I knew you would bring up Isaiah 53, so let us take a look at Verse 4 and 10.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

I see it as Isaiah says in other words, WE thought he was stricken by God, as the scripture says referring to

Deuteronomy 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

and verse 10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.


I think the word "pleased should not be viewed as "satisfied"
I see "pleased" in view that it was the only way that God would acchieve atonement, and in view of redemption of lost mankind, and glory to come, not in satisfaction of wrath as if God has to vent his anger in order to get his bad mood appeased.

God did not kill his son, neither did the Jews by proxy or the Romans kill Jesus.

Jesus gave his life and it pleased God though it caused our father unspeakable pain and relief at the same time.

Our human mind is too limited to fully comprehend this, as for me I am always lost in wonder and awe at the mystery of redemption.




 2021/2/15 14:28Profile
TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 547


 Re:

While I do believe in the penal substitution atonement of Christ, I also know others who balk at what others here have noted, specifically that God's wrath had to be satisfied in punishing His sinless Son at the Cross. This would be extreme child abuse if it weren't for the fact that Christ knowingly and willingly allowed and submitted to this end. Another thing that the critic's can't wrap their head around is the fact that God is a God of justice. Sin has to be dealt with justly. Breaking God's commands by sinning cannot go without being dealt with. What kind of God would God be if He made commands and then when those commands are disobeyed God is like, OK, no big deal. He would be a wishy-washy God who could not be trusted or respected.

One particular pastor, Brian Zahnd, has written a book attacking the penal substitutionary theory of atonement in his book, Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God. It is some of the most dangerous and heretical theology out there. One reviewer on Amazon made some interesting points showing the logical end that flows from Zahnd's thinking. To wit:

1. If you diminish the wrath of God, you also diminish the seriousness of my sin.
2. If you diminish the wrath of God, and the seriousness of my sin, you diminish the love of God, which is stunning in that God loves me even tho I am a sinner and an enemy of God.
3..If you diminish the love of God for a sinner like me, you diminish His totally stunning forgiveness of a sinner like me and so, His love for me, as a result, is really not that astounding.
4. If you diminish God's forgiveness of me, you diminish my ability to forgive others because my ability to forgive others is affected by my understanding of God's astounding forgiveness of me.
5. Ironically, all of the above leads to a diminishing of God's love because it really is not that unusual. I'm not that bad!

-Daniel

 2021/2/15 14:35Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2130


 Re: Views of the Atonement



1) THE DEATH OF DEATH IN THE DEATH OF CHRIST by John Owen

2) A PRICE FOR A PEOPLE by Tom Wells

3) DEFINITE ATONEMENT by Gary Long

4) Particular Grace by Abraham Kuyper.

5) Redemption Accomplished and Applied by John Murray

And finally this;

From Heaven He Came and Sought Her: Definite Atonement in Historical, Biblical, Theological, and Pastoral Perspective edited by David Gibson and Jonathan Gibson

 2021/2/15 15:42Profile





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