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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Why I dont follow Matthew 18 when discussing nationally known ministries

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 Re:

Quote:
This is a noble burden that you have and your past experience in this area is valuable. But think back to the days when you were there, can you really place all the blame on others? The truth is that the greatest deception is not the Anti-Christ, or false prophets or TV evangelists, the greatest deception is self-deception. As the prophet said, "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked."



You are absolutely right, and I did repent of allowing myself to be sucked in. On another thread earlier this week I gave a more detailed testimony on this... and my greatest failure was that I read more books by Charismatic authors than I did the Bible. My devotions (when I had them) consisted of MAYBE 10 minutes of reading the Word, and 45 minutes of reading a Copeland book, or something by someone else.

[b]I[/b] was not in the Word, and I admit that. And thats why when I exhort people to examine what they belief I always try and emphasize the fact that they need to get back to reading the Word... and the Word alone.

The whole time I have been on this site I have only recommended 2 books frequently. No Compromise: The Life Story of Keith Green... and Who Are You To Judge by Erwin Lutzer.

Other than that, the Word will feed you, the Holy Spirit will teach you. Teachers and authors are fine, but if we are spending more time reading the words of a teacher than we are the Word... we are out of balance.

And thats where I fell.

I fully admit that.

Krispy

 2005/7/22 6:43
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Biblebase

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Scripture calls us to mark and avoid false teachers. We are also exhorted to weigh all things against scripture to see if they are true, and to expose the false.

Could you please for my sake, walk me through your theology on the above satements, scripture etc? For I am sure there is scripture that has caused you to walk in the manner in which you are at present.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/7/22 7:49Profile









 Re: Biblebase

Quote:
Could you please for my sake, walk me through your theology on the above satements, scripture etc? For I am sure there is scripture that has caused you to walk in the manner in which you are at present.



Sure Zeke... scroll back to the very first post on this thead. It's all there.

Krispy

 2005/7/22 8:04
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:You only see one side of me. I wear many hats.Krispy



I hope at least one of them has the #3 on it. :-P


_________________
Bill

 2005/7/22 9:24Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re: Biblebase

Here is one that pops into mind.

Revelation 2

To the church in Ephesus
1"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands: 2I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

and also a few verse later...

6But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

any comments on "what are the practices of the Nicolations?" I'm new so bear with me. Should I start a new thread when posing a question like this?


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Patrick Ersig

 2005/7/22 10:01Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

I feel that God not only creates within us the desire to do His will, but also empowers us with strength and then helps us to follow through until we complete the task and accomplish His purposes, guess what I am saying here is that if your supposed to be doing this he will create a desire in us, I have no desire myself at all to do this so I guess it not his will for me personally to do so.


_________________
Bill

 2005/7/22 10:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I hope at least one of them has the #3 on it.



Actually I have five #3 hats...

And everyone from other countries is probably wondering what in the world we are talking about!

Krispy

 2005/7/22 11:28









 Re:

Quote:
any comments on "what are the practices of the Nicolations?"



Briefly, they created an unscriptural hierarchy of authority in the church, and lorded their authority over the laity. The Roman Catholic Church is a shining example of the Nicolations.

But it's not limited just to the RCC... it can happen in any church to one degree or another. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Krispy

 2005/7/22 11:33
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

MrBillPro,

Quote:

“I feel that God not only creates within us the desire to do His will, but also empowers us with strength and then helps us to follow through until we complete the task and accomplish His purposes, guess what I am saying here is that if your supposed to be doing this he will create a desire in us, I have no desire myself at all to do this so I guess it not his will for me personally to do so.”

So many of the things Christ requires and the model of how we are to live that He laid down for us to follow are in direct opposition to the flesh. As you grow in knowledge of the Word you will find these type of things popping up over and over again.

You are correct that the Lord will put a desire in your heart to live and walk as He walked and the Lord will give you power to overcome. Of this you can be sure!!! You can also be sure that this is an ongoing process.

The Lord does not necessarily create a desire in us to do the thing we don't want to do and that our flesh shrinks from automatically. (even thought this is sometimes the case) I have found personally that sometime we need to seek His grace in these matters. Sometime we need to beg and be dogmatically persistent in seeking His grace in these matters. Sometimes we need to wrestle as Jacob wrestled and not give up. Personally, only after weeks of persistent fasting and prayer has Gods grace fell upon me enabling with the power and desire of which you speak. I stand firm on the promises of God and I assure you that if you seek God to put in your heart a desire and give you the power to live as He lived in all matters that He brings to your attention and don’t give up, His grace will fall upon you too. I encourage you dear brother to do this for God loves you and wants to put in your heart a desire and wants to give you the power, but sometimes He wants us to seek Him tirelessly in these matters and if we do so He will not forsake us and we will grow in power and glory and grace.

There are many things that Christ requires us to do that I have or had no desire to do. My flesh shrinks away and hides from such things, but let that not be a reason for us not to do them. Not out of some legalistic mind set, but out of true and undying love for the Savior and lover of our souls.

Jesus said “why do you say you love me and not obey my commands”

This reminds me of the following quote from Jonathan Edwards:

"But how often hath Christ told us the necessity of doing difficult duties of religion, if we will be his disciples; that we must sell all, take up our cross daily, deny ourselves, renounce our worldly profits and interests, etc. And if this duty seem hard and difficult to you, let not that be an objection with you against doing it. For you have taken up quite a wrong notion of things if you expect to go to heaven without performing difficult duties; if you expect any other than to find the way to life a narrow way.” Jonathan Edwards

Let us love and encourage and help each other to make it down the narrow road of which or Lord speaks. And may God give us His grace and mercy to stand up against those who would have us believe this road is really broad and wide.


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/7/22 12:50Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

[Disclaimer: I am going to sometimes say "his" in reference to churches that, it seems, Paul had God-given authority over and responsability for. I realize that, ultimately, the Church is God's.]

I think it's important that we distinguish between apostles and teachers. These are very different callings.

How is a true apostle recognized?

2 Corinthians 12:12
"The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles."

So I think testing someone who is claiming to be an apostle would be pretty simple. Where's the clear demonstration of the authentic power of God? No power = No apostle.

I think another very relevant portion of Scripture for this discussion is 1 Corinthians 4:1-5, 15-20.

How did Paul deal with false teachers and/or false teaching? Well, I think it's important to first point out that he had a legitiamte amount of God-given authority over churches that I would suppose none of us know anything about. When's the last time that a real miracle (NT kind) was performed through us?

Beyond that, it seems that Paul was not only a common apostle, but that he is even distinguished among the apostles. [b]It seems clear that Paul had certain amounts of God-given authority and responsability over [i]his[/i] churches, and this qualified him to speak about certian things in certain ways [u]to them[/u].[/b] I don't see him just speaking out to the entire corporate Church (and especially in the hearing of the world), to warn whomever might listen, concerning false teachings and/or false teachers.

But when he did do such things, in the context of [i]his[/i] churches, how did he do it? Here's at least one example of how he dealt with false teaching (I think) in the church he started in Corinth...

1 Corinthians 4:19
"But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the words of those who are arrogant, but their power."

If we look back in this book, we find that certain people (many/most?) in the body in Corinth were getting arrogant in their understanding. They are saying "I am of Paul" or "I am of Cephas" or "I am of Christ."

I can just imagine one of them thinking, "Well, I am right because I am just keeping with Christ's words and [i]he[/i] is merely following Paul. I'm going to go with Christ over Paul." Perhaps such an individual felt like the 2 were in conflict and instead of taking a humble posture of "I don't know" and being patient, they took arrogant postures like "I [i]am[/i] right, period", etc. At least that's how I see it.

This reminds me of some in the body of Christ today who might find security in their camp (which I think is ok to a certain degree) and from there feel bold to speak of certain things in certain ways. Like flashing a book title by John McArther or Jack Deere gives some kind of authority. Well, it does I suppose, and I would think of it mostly as counterfeit authority, especially if used in the way I am speaking of. If you know what you are talking about, speak it from your own heart. Know what I mean?

[b]It seems clear to me that in the New Testament- learning and scholarship is no means of legitimate spiritual authority- power is.[/b]

I believe that Paul knew that it wasn't fancy words and arguments that revealed authority- it was power. And he was about to go put some people in their place.

I also think this point is very important to see...

In the New Testament after Pentacost (which I think of as the official beginning of the Church, so to speak), is there any example of a saint publically critisizing another, as in a mass communication form?

I know this question might seem unfair, because they didn't have things like printing presses and the internet, but they could have circulated something along these lines. I don't think the book of Revelation counts because that was born out of direct revelation in the Spirit, not merely logical thinking.

[This brings me back to a disclaimer I made before. If God leads, we are to obey, and His voice overrules prinicples. But, honestly, is this [i]ever[/i] the case with modern "discernment" ministries?]

You might think, "Well, Paul speaks of certain false teachers in his letters."

[By the way, could someone please reference these, I have been having trouble finding some. I looked up "false teachers" and only 1 verse came up, 2 Pet. 2:1. But I feel confident there is more, it may just not use the exact term "false teachers."]

Yes, that's true. But those letters are to [i]his[/i] churches, if you will. It seems that he was protecting the flock that God had given him and that he only spoke like this to those whom God had given him authority over.

You might be thinking, "What about when Paul confronted Peter?" Well, I do think it's relevant to first mention that the text says "Cephas," not Peter. As far as I understand it, it is merely a good possibility that this is referring to Peter, the apostle, but it's not a sure fact.

Now, even if it was Peter, look at how Paul addresses him. He's not nit picking certain things Cephas might have said or done in the past and exposing him. He actually confronts him initially in question form. I think this is a good model for confronting with humility.

And let's not forget, the very integrity of the gospel was at stake in this case. It seems that the Jews in Antioch were feeling superior to the Gentiles and wouldn't even eat with them. It wasn't merely a matter of questionable teaching, prophecy, phenomena, or something of that nature.

 2005/7/22 15:50Profile





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