Brother Zeke posted this question to me concerning my thread on Rodney Howard-Browne… (by the way, please don’t turn this into another discussion on RHB! I would just like to discuss the content of this post, please.)

That whole section goes into the church and its authority, you know binding and loosing, 2 or more.... its all one big discourse, it, like much of the principles in the bible starts off with the individual and moves toward community, i.e. the church (kinda funny because the last letter in Rev to the churches starts off with the church and moves to the individual).Anyway that's my take on that passage , its an entire discourse on christian ethic and church authority and how it works out not only in an individuals life but also within the local assembly of believers. :-(

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D.Miller

I also have heard Matthew 18 used out of context. You are correct in stating that this verse deals specifically with personal offenses.

When it comes to sin, false teaching, hypocrisy or unsound doctrine, the biblical model is always open public confrontation.

Open public confrontation is how John the Baptist dealt with Herod. Jesus never pulled the Pharisees aside one by one to deal with their hypocrisy, but He stood them up, boldly stared them down and publicly confronted them. This is also how Paul dealt with Peter and his hypocrisy. We must also look at -

Anyone who sins should be rebuked in front of the whole church so that others will have a proper fear of God. 1 Tim 5:20

And I’m sure we can all agree that preaching a Jesus other than the Jesus in the New Testament is a sin. (i.e. - a Jesus who is all love but no wrath, a Jesus who tolerates hypocrisy and sin, a Jesus who will send nobody to Hell or a Jesus who is all wrath and no love)

A public message board is a good place to do this, but I feel it should and needs to be done in person also. Individual squabbles should be handled privately, but sin, false teachers, hypocrisy and unsound doctrine should be openly and publicly confronted. It would be great if the Joel Osteen’s and Benny Hinn’s of the world were publicly rebuked in front of the whole church so that others would have a proper fear of God.

For more information on the subject there is a short article on the “articles” page of my website entitled “Chapter 6 - Conflicts With The Religious”

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Patrick Ersig

Amen... good word, bro.

Boy, we have a great crop of new people on this forum! I love it.

Krispy

Back before PTL went down the tubes, I wrote a personal letter to Jim Bakker trying to warn him with scripture. All that was received back was a form letter asking for money. Probably this is what would happen if a letter were to be written to one of the current ministers that seem to me to be off base. Sometimes the Lord opens impossible doors though.

In Christ,
GaryE

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Gary Eckenroth

It's not as though these ministers havent been warned. There are discernment ministries that attempt to make contact with them, and are usually met with no response.

Some average person like you and I can not personally contact them. We can write a letter, but they receive thousands of letters daily... and with many of them, if their isnt any money in the envelope, they get disregarded. Big ministries out source their letter opening tasks. This is a fact. Kinda like when you call a large company's customer service... sometimes you're talking to someone in India.

Krispy

I think this is a relevant Scripture to bring up in this discussion and it seems to me that both sides have some truth to them, from my perspecticve.

Can you honestly say that some of these people, who you feel are "fleecing the sheep", "decieving the masses", etc. haven't offended you? These people that some of you feel you have been decieved by and lied to along with loved ones, and are still recovering from? Maybe you actually have (become free of offense), but it sometimes appears, and I think it has been admitted to, that this is not (always) fully the case, and that the offense has not fully been dealt with in the heart. I could be off here, but I think it's worth a good heart check anyway, for myself as well.

I encourage everyone who is interested in understanding this subject more to read Matthew 18 in context, but especially verses 21-35 (and out of those especially 32-35).

How patient have we been with some of these people? Or did we quickly look on the internet and believe all the criticism?

It seems clear that the big ministries that abound in the world today have no comparison in Bible times. So while we might not always be able to directly apply Matthew 18, we can at least try our best, and still walk in the spirit of the text, if you will.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Jesus starts out his talk here with these words...

Matthew 18:3-4
"Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven."

If a little boy sees people laughing, joyful, if he sees the supernatural and healings, what is his response? Is it skepticism and doubt, or excitement and belief? Clearly I think we would agree it's the latter (unless an authority figure quickly comes in and tells them it's "of the devil", etc.).

I believe this is how the Bereans were. They are often praised and offered as a good example for "discernement ministries" because they "examin[ed] the Scriptures daily," but they did it in an opposite spirit than many seem to be promoting today.

Acts 17:11-12
"Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessolonica, for [b]they recieved the word with [i]great[/i] eagerness[/b], examining the Scriptures daily, [b]to see whether these things were so[/b]. Many of them [b]therefore[/b] believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men."

It seems clear that this Scripture is about hearing something new, being excited about it and hoping it's true (i.e. "receiving it with eagerness"), and then, being in this frame of mind, checking the Scriptures for verification.

I think the way they received the information (with great eagerness) speaks more to their nobility of mind than the fact that they searched the Scriptures. The Pharisees and scribes searched the Scriptures, but you don't see them being called noble-minded.

To use this Scripture in defense of critisizing and exposing what is perceived to be flaws in ministries seems perverse to me. The Bereans were totally open-minded and excited about what they were hearing and were just checking the Scriptures to make sure things lined up. Many people today are closed-minded about what they have come to believe and search the Scriptures to prove others wrong. I do not believe this is noble-minded at all, in fact it might just be the opposite.

I think that, in a sense, the Bereans modeled 1 Thessalonians 5:21 for us, which says, "Examine everything, hold fast to that which is good." This Scripture is not about discerning other people's ministries (at least that's not the direct application), it's about what to do with prophetic utterances. From my study of the verse it's basically saying, "Examine each prophecy to see what's genuine. Hold on to the stuff that is."

This is an opposite state of mind than looking into ministries to expose the faults. This is about looking into what may be new, fresh revelations and holding on to whatever is proven good of them. Again, I think it's perverse to use this Scripture as a defense for exposing flaws in ministries.

I picture the Bereans getting all excited and stirred up by hearing all these new wonderful things and just being like "Really!? Really!!?"

The main point I am trying to make clear is this- they recieved this new revelation and information with great eagerness, not skepticism. I believe this is like a child, with true humility of mind, which in the Kingdom of God is noble. I could go on about these Bereans, but will stop here for now.

To bring this back around to Matthew 18:15-17...

I believe that if we are walking in true humility of mind and child-likeness, if we feel the need to do this kind of thing (expose, etc.) at all, we will (at least) first do our best to contact the parties that we have concerns about. If the figurehead of the ministry can't be reached directly (which is totally understandable), we can attempt to speak with someone in their ministry or church who might be able to help us understand their perspective. I've tried this, and it has taken patience, but it has worked.

I woudn't be surprised if many of the people that take the most heat, like Benny Hinn, have studied and put in more "Bible-time" than most of his critics. I think if we are walking in humility and noblity of mind, and we come across some new information that concerns us, we will think something like, "Huh. This is strange. This doesn't seem right with what I have learned, but this person has probabaly read the same verses I have, maybe even more. They must see things differently." And then we can do our best to find out how they see things and understand the Scriptures that seem (to us) to invalidate or contradict what they are saying.

Do we really think any of them would be like, "Well, I just don't really pay attention to 1 Timothy 6. I think Paul was just in a bad mood and taking it out on rich people that day."??

It's that instinct that thinks "I [i]know[/i] I'm right about this and there's no way I'm wrong" that I believe leads to deception. The questions are, "Are you absolutely sure you are right?" and if so, "Can you absolutely prove you are by the Scriptures." If we can answer both of these questions with a definite "yes" (which I think would be very rare, if not impossible, to do in this life with many of these things), and we've done our best to get the other parties perspective, then I think we might possibly be in a place to speak publically about it, if God allows us. And even then, probably only to those who we are in God-given authority over (i.e. a pastor to his church, etc.).

[Disclaimer: Obviously most of what I am talking about here is principles. If God clearly leads someone and gives them authority to declare it, then that overrules these principles. But this, of course, can be dangerous ground if it's not clearly God. I don't want to be found in presumption, espcially in an area like this.]

Quote:
"When it comes to sin, false teaching, hypocrisy or unsound doctrine, the biblical model is always open public confrontation."

Perhaps, but as your examples verify, these were personal confrontations that took courage, not cowardly critiques from behind the safety of the world wide web. I'm not saying that every internet site that focuses on discernment is necessarily cowardly, but I think the principle is relevant.

Did not John the Baptist openly confront Herod? Did not Jesus openly and in person confront the Pharisees? Did not Paul openly confront Simon face to face? These examples are a far cry from much of what we see going on today with "discernment ministries", don't you think? Besides, all these exmaples are of men who carried great amounts of God-given authority. And the John the Baptist and Jesus examples are pre-Pentecost which I think makes a big difference. I think it might be good to look deeper into Paul's public correction of Simon, but I'll wait to see if anyone is interested in doing that.

Good points, Todd. I just want to clarify that when I said [i]"and with [b]many of them[/b], if their isnt any money in the envelope, they get disregarded."[/i] ... impying that I do not believe ALL nationally known ministers are "fleecing the flock". There are cetainly some very legitimate ministries out there.

Krispy

Todd,

I also feel you bring up some good points and I agree that we should not spend our time in a fault finding mission and discernment ministries who are out to find every fault with everyone they can are operating with a wrong heart mode.

But, I myself, and I believe many others who have been outspoken on certain issues and teachers do not operate in this fault finding mode. (Ravenhill, Dave Hunt, Art Katz, Wilkerson are example of outspoken but not fault finders in my opinion) What usually happens is that I hear someone or something and bells and whistle go off. These bells and whistle bring to memory certain Scriptures that are contrary or in direct opposition to what I am hearing. Or a sermon or teaching might pop in my mind that poses serious questions about what I am hearing or reading. (i.e. - a Ravenhill or Wilkerson sermon on issues facing the body of Christ)

When this happens I feel these bells and whistles need to be investigated and confirmed through Scripture and good hermeneutical bible study practices, not ignored or pushed aside. I think all of us at one time or another have heard something come from a Christian teacher , author or pastor and the bells and whistles and Scriptures come to mind that are in direct opposition to what we are reading or hearing (welcome to the Holy Spirit)

I have a hard time believing that when we encounter such teacher that Jesus would want us to be quiet and let them go on unchecked. How we should deal with or confront such things as blatant hypocrisy, unsound doctrine, false teaching, etc. is a wonderful debate that interest me greatly and should interest anyone else who know about the bells and whistle of which I speak. I still think open public confrontation is both Biblical and give the confronted party a chance to defend themselves in front of all.

I would love to hear any more thoughts and ideas on the subject.

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Patrick Ersig

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Zeke Oosthuis