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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Shoud Christians fight for abortion laws?

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murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1569
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.

Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy. Prov 31:8-9 NIV

Thus says the LORD: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place. Jer 22:3 ESV

Edit to add a scripture

This is a historical Christian conviction, one that caused Christians over the centuries to risk their lives to protect the defenseless and weak and to fight against oppression.


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Colin Murray

 2021/1/27 17:14Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1878


 Re:

People in this forum are not answering one of my fundamental question.

If you believe Christians in the USA should unite and fight to influence civil law then will you also accept Muslims doing the same in Islamic nations and Hindus doing the same in India, Napal etc? When Islamic nations due to the influence of Islam prevent the spread of gospel by banning the Bible, we say that is wrong, but we have no problem with us Christians influencing the law in the USA.

Religion should have nothing to do with Politics and civil law. Civil law should give everyone freedom to do what they want unless it is affecting the freedom of others.


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Sreeram

 2021/1/27 18:29Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 747
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Quote:

Religion should have nothing to do with Politics and civil law. Civil law should give everyone freedom to do what they want unless it is affecting the freedom of others.




The Quran and the Bhagavad Gita are not inspired by God. The Bible is. So no, I do not accept Muslims or Hindus passing laws in accordance with their religions. There is no such thing as neutrality. Atheist governments are anything but neutral. I think christians should influence laws not only in the U.S., but in every country in the world.

Is a homosexual practicing his sin affecting me? Ask Lot. Sin brings God's judgment on a nation. Everything a person does affects others in some way, even if it is a sin done in secret.

"Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people." Proverbs 14:34


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Nigel Holland

 2021/1/27 18:46Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4547


 Re:

Hi Sree,

Quote:
The Tenboom family did not get involved in politics to fight Hitler and the killing of Jews.



What makes you say this? What evidence do you have to make this claim?

Let me (again) make it clear that this is not "fighting." Rather, a vote in the United States is simply sharing your VOICE. It is a voice about who you think should be the Chief Executive Officer for the next four years. Period.

This isn't about choosing a pastor.
It isn't about selling your soul for politics.

Rather, this is simply sharing a voice about which person you think would make decisions that embrace righteousness over unrighteousness.

To be clear: Corrie ten Boom and her family were following God rather than man. They were abiding by what John Locke and the founders of America would call "natural laws" or "natural rights."

There are examples of believers who impacted their nations through vocal participation.

Consider William Wilberforce. He pushed England for the abolition of slavery.

Consider Telemachus. He was a believer who tried to stop individuals from being killed by gladiators in a Roman ampitheatre. He was stoned by the crowd -- but the Roman emperor heard about his death and ended the practice.

Consider the fight against slavery in the United States. From even before the story of the "Amistad" to the end of the Civil War, it was BELIEVERS who loudly opposed the practice.

Consider the Civil Rights movement in America. It was largely comprised of ministers -- white and black -- voicing opposition to this.

Let's be clear: I don't know anyone who is placing their faith in Donald Trump. He is little more than a flawed human vessel. Most people didn't vote for Trump's personality; rather, they voted for his policies.

At the same time, voting is a choice between the remaining candidates for a temporary office. Trump was the better choice because the alternatives in 2016 and 2020 proudly embrace a form of unrighteousness, immorality and ungodliness that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Many believers were simply making a choice and voicing for others to do the same.


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Christopher

 2021/1/27 23:38Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4547


 Re:

Hi Sree,

Quote:
Civil law should give everyone freedom to do what they want unless it is affecting the freedom of others.



I disagree.

As I stated before, law in a republic is based upon the consent of the governed. That consent is formulated by our morals. Those morals are very often shaped by our faith.

The Constitution for the United States exists to place limits on the FEDERAL government. The 10th Amendment delegate most governing responsibilities to the states.

So, the Constitution doesn't give us rights. Rather, it exists to restrict the federal government from taking away what are deemed to be fundamental natural rights.

There are laws that are prohibitive and punitive in nature. We have laws that govern everything from restrictions on marriage (by age, relationship, etc.) to laws that govern who can drink alcohol, who can drive, who can go to school, etc.

These laws are based upon the consent of the governed. If "we the people" do not like a law, we can petition our representatives in government and even the courts to overturn such laws. Even if the Supreme Court rules that a law is "constitutional," the Constitution itself can be amended to a point that it would change the law.

Voting is not simply a "right." Rather, it is a responsibility. It is the responsibility to share your voice -- a decision -- based upon your own beliefs. As believers, our morality is shaped by our faith. So, our voice -- our vote -- can cancel out the voices (and votes) of those who are antagonistic toward God.

We aren't trying to legislate salvation or even godliness. Rather, we are trying to prevent others from legislate unrighteousness, immorality and ungodliness. We're trying to prevent others from using their voice (vote) and influencing our children through it.


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Christopher

 2021/1/27 23:46Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 875


 Re:

"When Islamic nations due to the influence of Islam prevent the spread of gospel by banning the Bible, we say that is wrong, but we have no problem with us Christians influencing the law in the USA."

Sree, that's because Islam is a lie. Why would I support the propogation of idolatry, lies, and wickedness?

I stand for truth. And truth isn't found in Islam, hinduism, or any other religion, save for what can be known by general revelation. Civil Law must be based upon something, and that something is the innate morality that is found within people that has been placed in them--not by society, not by Allah, not by man-made religion--by by God, Himself, who is the Author of the Bible. So, if we want to base laws on something that is concrete truth, then we base it upon the Bible! We are not secularists, we are Christians.

Also, I do not have to deal with your "fundamental question" since your argument is so poor. There are plenty of holes in it that do not match the truth of the word of God.

 2021/1/28 8:44Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1878


 Re:

Quote:

Sree, that's because Islam is a lie. Why would I support the propogation of idolatry, lies, and wickedness?




I appreciate this answer but it is Subjective. Suppose you are living in an Islamic nation and were tortured by the government for your faith, will you tell them that they are wrong to let Islam influence the government but Christians can do that in the USA?

I have lived as a Christian in India where we are ruled by the Hindutva government. They persecute the Church to please Hindus. They have laws like anticonversion laws to preserve the Hindu population from Christian conversion. They even have a law where marrying outside the Hindu religion is punishable! The root of all this is the mix of Hinduism and politics. Hindus need political support because their gods are not real and impotent to protect them. But that is not the same with our Christian God. Why do we act like we have the same impotent gods by exptecting political backing?

This is like Israelities asking for an earthly king because the nations around them are having kings. Since nations around them are controlled by their pagan religions, we Christians in the USA want the same.


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Sreeram

 2021/1/28 10:08Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 875


 Re:

Sree,

If you are wordly and secular it is subjective, but we are talking about TRUTH and that is not subjective. The Word of God is the objective truth in all things.

Your experiences are subjective, which is what you're basing your argument on. However, the Scriptures are not. That is your fundamental error. Whether you realize it or not, your words reflect someone who does not believe that there is objective, moral truth.

It's called Post-Modernism.

 2021/1/28 10:44Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1878


 Re:

Quote:

Your experiences are subjective, which is what you're basing your argument on. However, the Scriptures are not. That is your fundamental error. Whether you realize it or not, your words reflect someone who does not believe that there is objective, moral truth.

It's called Post-Modernism.



As a Christian, I do believe in Objective moral truth. I am also well aware of logical arguments to prove objective morality. But like you said in the post-modernism, in which people do not believe in Objective morality, should we not be different? Should we not be different as a Christian and stay away from politics?

I strongly believe that as Christians who believe in a true living God, we should be separate from State and its civil laws. This is how I see Jesus and the Apostles living. They never commanded us to influence the country we live in to follow Biblical laws. But Islam teaches that in Muslim majority nations, the laws should be governed by Islam and all non-Muslims should be forcibly subject to Sheria law. Hindus even though they do not have clear teachings, they too are following the footsteps of Islam to protect their religion.

As Christian how are we different? If we too take the same route then how are we showing the world that our kingdom is not of this world?

We may agree to disagree, but at least I am bringing a different discussion to this table which has some truth to it.

Once Zakir Naik, a famous Islamic preacher from India and now living in the middle east, was asked this question. How do we Muslims fight against Hindu laws in India but in our Muslim majority nations, we force Hindus to follow Islamic laws. He gave the same answer that you gave. He said we know that Islam is the truth and hence we will force Hindus but we will not allow them to force us because they are believing in the lie. I don't find your answer different from his!


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Sreeram

 2021/1/28 11:24Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1569
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Religion should have nothing to do with Politics and civil law.

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 1 Tim 2:1-2

Your thinking doesn't line up with scripture; we are urged to pray for Kings and Politicians this is the place Christian should get involved with politics and the shaping civil law.

The Lord's prayer as we pray it we are asking for a new government according to God's will - thy kingdom come; thy will be done; on earth as it is in heaven.

Do we understand that we are asking for when we ask the earth to be like heaven?

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations Matthew 28:18-19

We are commanded to make disciple of all nations.

Is there a valid hope to influence nations for the glory of God? A quick look at history tells us that, yes, the gospel really can and should change nations.

Hans Nielsen Hauge (1771-1824), a lay preacher who spent decades promoting revival in Norway, helped to transform the religious and social landscape of his homeland.

Willian Wilberforce wrote in his diary - October 28, 1787: “God Almighty has set before me two great objectives, the suppression of the Slave Trade and the reformation of morals.

For the next forty-six years Wilberforce worked tirelessly to change English law, to change English culture and to change the English economy in order to end the English slave trade. Three days before his death on July 26, 1833, the House of Commons passed the bill that abolished slavery in the entire British Empire. This was not done by a preacher, but by a Christian serving God in civil government.


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Colin Murray

 2021/1/28 16:42Profile





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